Strut Angle and Placement

**Sharp shooter** · 02-03-2014, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by WESTERNAERO

Seriously how hard is it to explain this stuff, be it general rules that apply to most flattys or cruisers down to in-depth info on setting a beismeyer for SS class racing?

Sometimes it's very hard. There were 100's of different types of boats and how many Camaros? I believe that some people hear the word flatbottom and assume they're all the same and all work off the exact same parameters.

So some kid spends his hard earned money for a boat not suited for the goals he has for it.

1. It's not easy to tell him that he just wasted his time and money.
2. Explaining things like shaft angles, rocker, and hulls that just don't work isn't that easy.
3. There's always someone on the boards offering encouragement who's just as uninformed as the kid.
4. The kid gets confused and frustrated.
5. The guys trying to help become the assholes for trying to help.

That's what happens.... Part of the problem is, a new guy on a forum doesn't know who he should or shouldn't listen to.

Another problem I see on forum boards is the guy who inherits a boat or buys it cheap to flip it for profit. They come in asking a ton of questions about this and that without revealing their intentions. I really don't want to spend my time wasting hours trying to ID or locate past pictures of a boat so someone I'll never even meet can fatten their wallet.... I do however, try and help those who I believe will put the boat to good use.

**gn7** · 02-03-2014, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by WESTERNAERO

Bob you do know why I started these, you're correct. I'm not really asking for myself, but it would be nice to have a place to that's loaded with information that some young guy with his first v-drive could go and learn. You see it all the time on these forums. Some kid goes out and buys a 1968 Stevens, comes on the forums and says he going to put a 1000 HP in it, and then gets told by 10 different people it'll never work. No explanation as to why it won't work, no logical explanation how it should be, just a bunch of guys telling him "NO". So whats the kid do? Sells the boat and goes out and buys a jet boat or some wave maker.
These old vdrives are the hot rods of the water. If that same kid were to buy an old camaro and go on a hot rod forum and announce that he was going to 4-link the thing, he wouldn't get blasted by the members. He would have 10 people with good knowledge helping as much as they could.
Lets face it, the gentlemen "in the know" with rigging these things aren't getting any younger. So why not create a place that's filled with as much info as possible. Seriously how hard is it to explain this stuff, be it general rules that apply to most flattys or cruisers down to in-depth info on setting a beismeyer for SS class racing?
Thanks Wannabe, that was a nice little read.

Couple of times, over on PB somebody asked why there were no books or a manual or something that explained how to build and set up a v drive. And the answer was pretty much agreed, you just can't. Imagine how many of the v drives were build in garages in the 60s. I had two uncles that did it. I asked Rudy what the most common type sale he had in the 60s and it was overwhelming, Stage II, just a strut and fin with shaft and rudder holes. And they ALL got built and finished the same way. By asking questions of those that did it. They SHARED info just as today. They went to the races and looked to see how others were doing things. No manual or book, even in the hey day of V drives. Of course they didn't usually start out pissing people off to start with. I guess everybody has their methods.

Consider this Westernaero, OG is not only NOT interested in what others have to say, he's not all that interested in helping others as well. He posts long list of pictures like its his personal online photo album, and but not a word about what's being done, or used in the build.
I have never done a "build thread" and not sure I ever would. But would you really want to see a thread of me tearing down a junk yard 427 truck engine and sending it off to the machine shop and nothing written? I can do that if you think it would be helpful.

WESTERNAERO · 02-03-2014, 11:39 AM

I don't know Jerry, maybe it's just me, but I don't find this stuff that difficult to understand. I would like to see some basic principals laid out as rules to start with. There's fine tuning with everything I just don't understand why the basics can't be said.
That 1" per foot of hull that Bob Teague told me sure isn't that hard to understand. It's funny that he was the only one who said that though after asking multiple people for a couple months. After asking a few why on my boat the strut should be 20-23"'s I never got a definitive answer as to why. It was always, well that's what everyone says or does. Come on man, LOL, that's just craziness. You've put up some really good history of these old boats, it's a very nice little library you've made here. So why can we have a library of info on how these things actually work, and work right?

WESTERNAERO · 02-03-2014, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by gn7

Couple of times, over on PB somebody asked why there were no books or a manual or something that explained how to build and set up a v drive. And the answer was pretty much agreed, you just can't. Imagine how many of the v drives were build in garages in the 60s. I had two uncles that did it. I asked Rudy what the most common type sale he had in the 60s and it was overwhelming, Stage II, just a strut and fin with shaft and rudder holes. And they ALL got built and finished the same way. By asking questions of those that did it. They SHARED info just as today. They went to the races and looked to see how others were doing things. No manual or book, even in the hey day of V drives. Of course they didn't usually start out pissing people off to start with. I guess everybody has their methods.

Consider this Westernaero, OG is not only NOT interested in what others have to say, he's not all that interested in helping others as well. He posts long list of pictures like its his personal online photo album, and but not a word about what's being done, or used in the build.
I have never done a "build thread" and not sure I ever would. But would you really want to see a thread of me tearing down a junk yard 427 truck engine and sending it off to the machine shop and nothing written? I can do that if you think it would be helpful.

Bob, I didn't start this because I was defending OG in any way. I started this because SnoC was telling OG about his strut angles and engine height and what not. But he didn't explain WHY he was telling him those things. I think Snoc was actually trying to give him some sound advise but OG doesn't understand. Does he want to understand, I don't know, but why not throw some basics out there for him to understand why he should know.

**SnoC653** · 02-03-2014, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by WESTERNAERO

I don't know Jerry, maybe it's just me, but I don't find this stuff that difficult to understand. I would like to see some basic principals laid out as rules to start with. There's fine tuning with everything I just don't understand why the basics can't be said.
That 1" per foot of hull that Bob Teague told me sure isn't that hard to understand. It's funny that he was the only one who said that though after asking multiple people for a couple months. After asking a few why on my boat the strut should be 20-23"'s I never got a definitive answer as to why. It was always, well that's what everyone says or does. Come on man, LOL, that's just craziness. You've put up some really good history of these old boats, it's a very nice little library you've made here. So why can we have a library of info on how these things actually work, and work right?

I know exactly what you are saying. I come from an aviation background and fluid dynamics and aerodynamics are pretty much the same. So I would ask what GC makes the boat carry properly? Or how much thrust does the prop need to produce before moving the engine forward or aft is required to balance the boat? Guess what answers I got. The people building them aren't fluid dynamic engineers, they are boat racers. They race in a class that pays jack squat for prize money. Most racers have more time than money and there isn't a lot of spare time when you own a race boat, so figure that is true about money to pay some engineer to analyze why your boat does or doesn't work. Most of the current designs are copies of someone else's design that happened to work. There were no teams of engineers calculating the lift of the hull if they do this or that, there were no water/wind tunnels to test new designs in prior to building it. A manufacturer built it, rigged it and raced it. If it worked well, someone else splashed it and made just enough changes to call it something else.

You were given a basic formula for strut location on a cruiser. That's like me giving you suspension configuration on a station wagon and you wondering why the same formula won't work on a Viper. Cruisers aren't ragged edge race boats generally (GN boats being the exception). But in the formula did he say if that distance was from the back of the plates or the back of the transom? Putting plates on the boat will change everything if you are looking to go fast. Ask how many ill handling cruisers have been seen and you'll get an idea of just how much more there is than just where the strut goes. But where the strut goes and at what angle it is at, is the basis for the entire build.

I have found when you want to know how to set up a boat, ask questions and give a lot of detailed response as to what you have and what you want to do with it. Someone will usually be able to tell you what they have seen or know to work in the past. That gives you a starting point. Once it is working and displays what issues it does or doesn't have, then adjustments can be made to correct it and make it handle the way it should.

Some day, I hope to be able to document what effects different changes generate on my boats. If it becomes something that is repeatable on other boats, we may wind up with some magic formula like you are asking for. But, like most, I don't have the time nor the resources to worry about that right now.

WESTERNAERO · 02-03-2014, 12:25 PM

Bob and Jerry, how about we do this. Maybe create a list of popular hulls and their strut location, angle and height for a given HP and use, that's known to work well. Just starting points for others to compare.

**Mitch** · 02-03-2014, 12:31 PM

I have never really talked with OG and dont no him, he runs the shit out of it at Parker up and down all day long and on the floor for long periods he has no problem in 2 foot weekend chop letting it fly with his HotBoat.Com sticker on the back .

WESTERNAERO · 02-03-2014, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mitch

I have never really talked with OG and dont no him, he runs the shit out of it at Parker up and down all day long and on the floor for long periods he has no problem in 2 foot weekend chop letting it fly with his HotBoat.Com sticker on the back .

Yeah, I was hoping this would turn out to be informative technical thing for everyone to learn.