Communist Core math

[Paul65K]

There is more to it than what has been discussed. But, there is sufficient grounds for some to be concerned. I'll go into my view at the end of this post.



Bruce the method you described was called new math back in the 60's. Remember your parents ranting about it when they tried to help you with your homework?



Is it really? While I'm not a fan of Common Core, the problem as I see it is most people don't understand what it really is. Let me start by saying while I have no kids in school (except grandkids) and my wife is a special needs pre-school teacher; I feel your pain. Correction: I felt your pain. As I mentioned above in the 60's it was new math. I would get problems marked wrong on a consistent basis for not showing my work. The answers were all right, but without showing the process the work was marked wrong. And the same is happening here. The answer is a fact. The questions aren't marked wrong because of factual deficiencies, they are marked wrong because what was being taught, the real common core if you will, was the process to get to the answer. If the process isn't used the student did not learn the lesson as assigned and taught. Therefore the question is wrong even though the factual answer presented was correct. In some of the examples shown, the student not only didn't learn the process but got the answer wrong as a result. It is immaterial that the student can use another process and generate the correct factual answer. The answer isn't being taught, the process is.

So why should our children be taught to follow the process (rules)? Surely no parent really needs to ask this? Yet rather than teaching them to work within the system, parents consistently teach that results matter more than following the rules. If you can get the right result with no consequences and put forth less effort, then all is good. We teach it by example every day. Yes our children should follow the rules, but that speed limit rule is just as inconvenient as using the new math process, so it is OK to ignore it. As long as we don't get caught and the outcome is right. And if we are caught, we complain that the rule is stupid and should be done away with, not that know we didn't follow it. In the case of common core, our kids don't have to complain that the process is stupid, their parents are doing it for them.

Now that I've expanded on what was beat into me when I was younger, let me say that teaching to the lowest standard attainable by most is plain stupidity. It's not really no child left behind, it is everyone else stop and wait. Common Core has some serious flaws. Predominantly in the areas of what is considered acceptable learning levels and the fact that it is a one size fits all program, rather than an individually measured and challenged learning environment. But, are people really willing to pay for enough teachers to teach children on an individual basis? Are they willing to put in the time and work at home that is required to help their children reach their maximum potential? And most importantly are they willing to teach their children at home that following the rules is required or there are consequences? If the education process is left up to the school to cover all this and much more, because the parents feel it is not their responsibility to do so, then Common Core is what you wind up with. Yes they may learn the factual answers, but more importantly they are taught to follow a system of complicated rules and how to apply those rules to get an acceptable answer. Face it, kids in school can't follow simple rules like dress codes, do their parents care? Does a concerned and involved parent really not have the time nor the ability to monitor what their child wears to school?

Everybody has time to complain about the solutions the "system" tries to implement to fix problems, but nobody seems to have the time to fix the problems before they become the "system's" problems.

YES IT IS ACTUALLY!!!!

While I don't take exception with teaching alternate ways to learn ANY subject I have a huge problem with only one way to teach or do anything. The whole process creates a group of followers IMO and not leaders and thinkers who are taught trained that there is more than one road to any destination. This is the point for me and I HAVE taken the time to understand this subject....thank you very much.

[2manymustangs]

You do realize that even the homeschool curriculums will need to be adjusted to cover the common core processes? Home schooled children still have to pass state mandated assessment testing, which is being revised in most states to cover the common core curriculum.

I do agree that home schooling has many advantages if the parents are willing to put in the time and effort to do the job right. Unfortunately, most people won't put forth the effort or lack the skills required to do the job right. And many home schooled children lack in social skill sets due to their isolation from their pier groups.

Most of us remember the trouble we got into and the good times we had with other kids we went to school with. Kids need time to grow and be kids without constant parental control (not to be confused with parental awareness and guidance). Integration is a critical part of the social school life and most home schooled children lack in this area.

I would assert that the SUBSET of MALADJUSTED home school kids is far far far far far smaller than you think AND far far far far far far smaller than the droopie draws/dropout/nyne packin/chronic weed smokin kids in public schools...

It's up to the parents to ensure that home school kids have proper interaction with other kids through group studies/sports/social events/field trips/EXTRA CURRICULAR activities, league sports, YMCA activities, karate class... IF a parent doesn't grant all of this to their home school kids they are doing them a DISservice...

I think that you are discounting the highly organized state and level of commitment of these parents... I know many and have grown up with them and their kids over the last 25-30 years... 99% of the homeschool kids I know are amazing young people that are LIGHTYEARS ahead of most public school kids AND even most of the private school kids that I know...

We have been involved with my kids private christian school very closely for about 25 years now and I would choose home school over this school given the opportunity...

Keep in mind that not all kids learn the same and are cut out for cookie cutter teaching methods / schools...


I'm not telling you anything you dont know, I think I know you well enough


My personal experience and outlook would be to move to a modern version of the one room school house, I was scoffed 10-15 years ago when I pitched this idea at my relatives that are teachers and have bought in HOOK LINE AND SINKER to the teachers union way AND to the Common Core way of thinking...

[Eli]

YES IT IS ACTUALLY!!!!

While I don't take exception with teaching alternate ways to learn ANY subject I have a huge problem with only one way to teach or do anything. The whole process creates a group of followers IMO and not leaders and thinkers who are taught trained that there is more than one road to any destination. This is the point for me and I HAVE taken the time to understand this subject....thank you very much.

I agree with you. We should calendar this one as well, I think we are at 3 for the year.

This reminds me of law school where my "legal writing" professors grilled me. Three semesters of a different teacher trying to force me into their box of how to write. It tormented me. I got very good grades on my written exams and I stuck with my own writing style. Obviously, I wasn't an idiot. It took me years to feel confident about my writing again. All because they wanted me to emulate them and not use my own skills.

This forcing people to do math one way, or anything for that matter is terrible for a child's self esteem and detrimental to their ability to become independent of the "group" and venture out. As we all know, a majority of the most brilliant people in history stepped out of the box and were innovative thinkers. Imagine what would've happened if Jobs and Gates were following the path they were told was right. Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, for example. These people failed over and over again until their accomplishments surpassed anyone's "expectations". The path of least resistance and most acceptance isn't always what's best, it's just what's easiest.

Ok I'll jump off my soap box now.


Sent from my Bat Cave

[SnoC653]

Thanks for even further enlightenment Snoc. Anyone else see the hypocrisy in the logic behind common core? They want to teach our kids to follow the rules when the very same people that are pushing this are the #1 rule breakers.
Almost sounds like they're producing a bunch of mindless sheep that will follow the rules all the way to slaughter. Because the end result isn't important, what's important is you were a good quiet little sheep.


Oath Keeper

Are the parents of these kids any better at following the rules? Do they even care if their kids follow the rules? Unfortunately most don't, all they care about is that they don't want to deal with it. That is why they send their kids to school, so someone else can teach them and do all the work. Most of the teachers I know don't like CC any more that the rest of us, but they do follow the rules to the best of their abilities, so they are teaching it. And you are only seeing one half of the problem. Any idea how much additional paperwork and documentation requirements go along with CC? I've seen teachers working well into the night trying to accomplish all the new mandated administrative BS that goes with the program. Don't tell me the teachers teaching it are the rule breakers, they are just stuck with it like the rest of us. And the people that passed this mess, like usual, are not effected by it one bit, because they don't actually have to teach it or use it. In fact most of the lawmakers that voted for it, have never taught a class in their life, let alone really know what it takes to educate a child.

YES IT IS ACTUALLY!!!!

While I don't take exception with teaching alternate ways to learn ANY subject I have a huge problem with only one way to teach or do anything. The whole process creates a group of followers IMO and not leaders and thinkers who are taught trained that there is more than one road to any destination. This is the point for me and I HAVE taken the time to understand this subject....thank you very much.

So teach the alternate ways at home. That's great. But by your definition, why should i have to memorize dates in History class, I've learned that I can get the same answer by using my smart phone and using Google. Why should you have to learn any process, when you can get the answer by asking someone else?

And as I stated before, the answers are not what is being taught. The process used to get that answer is being taught. Are you saying that because little Jimmy can't learn the process being taught, we should let him do something else? And is the problem really that Jimmy can't get it? Or is the problem that his parents don't get it, so they tell him it's stupid and he doesn't need to learn it? Common Core is intended to teach it at the lowest level. Once a child has learned it in the most basic form, they can learn short cuts and other methods to expedite the process. Just like learning to drive a car, remember all the steps we had to go through when we took drivers ed? Do you expect me to believe you hit every step, every time you get in the car to drive? Or were we taught at the basic level and as we gained experience and proficiency we were allowed to focus more on results rather than process?

The math being discussed is about a process. The problem with CC isn't about them using a different process. The problem is all the little extras snuck into the program. And I haven't seen anyone mention any of those little jewels.

[The Doctor]

The other day I was researching a topic and I typed in the words "What's wrong" and before I completed my typing What's wrong with common core came up with thousands of hits. This is simply an untested and unproven method of teaching. The fact that cursive is eliminated will negate future adults from reading historical documents which are nearly all written in cursive. This is but one of the myriad of things wrong with common core.

http://www.app.com/story/opinion/201...core/14822945/

[MrDenton]

I never called a teacher a rule breaker. They're just good quiet little sheep too. The elected officials that are forcing this shit down our throats is who I was referring to.
I got to great lengths to teach my son rules and discipline. He is also being taught to think for himself. Believe nothing you hear and only half if what you see or read.
My wife is a stay at home mom, she's been his home tutor for his entire life. Her biggest beef with CC is the inability to help him with this. There are NO sample pages, NO written method to read, NO explanation of how to do the work. It's like it's a big secret that the parents aren't allowed in on. Luckily my wife is smarter than the average bear and she's figured it out.
Home schooling to me isn't something is want for Dylan. We have a few kids across the street that home school. They do a lot of social activities but I've noticed they don't take direction well from other adults. I think it's because mom is the only one that's ever taught them anything.
For us as parents, we'd like to be included in the process rather than blindly sending our kids off to be taught/brainwashed the new way if doing things.
As for not being a good parent because I'd pawn him off on the schools to be taught by someone else? Pretty ignorant statement. Can't even reply to that without wanting to throat punch someone.


Oath Keeper

[SnoC653]

I would assert that the SUBSET of MALADJUSTED home school kids is far far far far far smaller than you think AND far far far far far far smaller than the droopie draws/dropout/nyne packin/chronic weed smokin kids in public schools...

It's up to the parents to ensure that home school kids have proper interaction with other kids through group studies/sports/social events/field trips/EXTRA CURRICULAR activities, league sports, YMCA activities, karate class... IF a parent doesn't grant all of this to their home school kids they are doing them a DISservice...

I think that you are discounting the highly organized state and level of commitment of these parents... I know many and have grown up with them and their kids over the last 25-30 years... 99% of the homeschool kids I know are amazing young people that are LIGHTYEARS ahead of most public school kids AND even most of the private school kids that I know...

We have been involved with my kids private christian school very closely for about 25 years now and I would choose home school over this school given the opportunity...

Keep in mind that not all kids learn the same and are cut out for cookie cutter teaching methods / schools...


I'm not telling you anything you dont know, I think I know you well enough


My personal experience and outlook would be to move to a modern version of the one room school house, I was scoffed 10-15 years ago when I pitched this idea at my relatives that are teachers and have bought in HOOK LINE AND SINKER to the teachers union way AND to the Common Core way of thinking...

Yes you know me better than to think I'm not in favor of home schooling and there is a reason most of the kids who's parents lack parenting skills, send their kids to public school. IMHO those parents that are too lazy or maladjusted to learn proper parenting skills are also far too lazy to put out any semblance of the effort required to home school their children. And while I don't like the idea of one teacher trying to teach all the grades K-12 at the same time in the same room, I like your concept of forcing the teacher to know the students and their individual learning needs and then meeting those needs at various learning levels.

I agree with you. We should calendar this one as well, I think we are at 3 for the year.

This reminds me of law school where my "legal writing" professors grilled me. Three semesters of a different teacher trying to force me into their box of how to write. It tormented me. I got very good grades on my written exams and I stuck with my own writing style. Obviously, I wasn't an idiot. It took me years to feel confident about my writing again. All because they wanted me to emulate them and not use my own skills.

This forcing people to do math one way, or anything for that matter is terrible for a child's self esteem and detrimental to their ability to become independent of the "group" and venture out. As we all know, a majority of the most brilliant people in history stepped out of the box and were innovative thinkers. Imagine what would've happened if Jobs and Gates were following the path they were told was right. Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, for example. These people failed over and over again until their accomplishments surpassed anyone's "expectations". The path of least resistance and most acceptance isn't always what's best, it's just what's easiest.

Ok I'll jump off my soap box now.


Sent from my Bat Cave

Eli, when you went to law school you had already mastered the skill of writing. And there is a huge difference between a professor trying to get you to write in a style that is convenient for them v.s. teaching the fundamental structuring required to make a sentence, paragraph, or even paper. As I stated above, once the basics are mastered, then by all means expand and teach alternate methods. But, in the case of 4th grade math, the problem is the kids are being taught a process that will give them the basic skills. The parents don't know the method being used and have taught or are teaching the children using a different method (or the child has learned the old method in school and is being transitioned to the new method). Once they have learned how to do the problem correctly, who cares which method they use out in the real world. But, clearly there is a problem when they can't even make change at McDonald's without the register telling them how much to give back. The problem is also with the parents telling the kids that the method being taught is wrong and therefore unimportant, when the method does work but isn't the method the parent learned by.

IMHO the biggest problem isn't what method is dictated to be used, but rather the fact that Government is dictating what information is relevant to be taught in the first place. Then look at how CC controls what is taught through controlling budget and educator pay. The Federal Gov't has no place in a school other than as the Subject of a class in order for kids to understand how it works.

[SnoC653]

I never called a teacher a rule breaker. They're just good quiet little sheep too. The elected officials that are forcing this shit down our throats is who I was referring to.
I got to great lengths to teach my son rules and discipline. He is also being taught to think for himself. Believe nothing you hear and only half if what you see or read.
My wife is a stay at home mom, she's been his home tutor for his entire life. Her biggest beef with CC is the inability to help him with this. There are NO sample pages, NO written method to read, NO explanation of how to do the work. It's like it's a big secret that the parents aren't allowed in on. Luckily my wife is smarter than the average bear and she's figured it out.
Home schooling to me isn't something is want for Dylan. We have a few kids across the street that home school. They do a lot of social activities but I've noticed they don't take direction well from other adults. I think it's because mom is the only one that's ever taught them anything.
For us as parents, we'd like to be included in the process rather than blindly sending our kids off to be taught/brainwashed the new way if doing things.
As for not being a good parent because I'd pawn him off on the schools to be taught by someone else? Pretty ignorant statement. Can't even reply to that without wanting to throat punch someone.


Oath Keeper

I love a good debate, while I accept that you didn't call the teachers the rule breakers, please note I did not call every parent that sends their children to public school a bad parent. I simply stated that the bad parents do tend to send their kids to public schools for the posted reasons.

Yes the lack of a push package to give to parents to explain how to help their children with the new methods is one of the down falls. If it is standardized teaching, surely they could have materials that explain the method to refer the parent to, or to simply give the parents. The text books being used also do not yet reflect the teaching method being directed by CC. So parents have no way to help really. And the new teacher documentation requirements don't leave the teachers with sufficient time to draft up their own parental aids to give out.

I agree with your probable cause and effect with your neighbor's children and their lack of acceptance of guidance or rules from outside sources. If they are involved in outside activities, hopefully they will outgrow those difficulties. Sometimes home schooling just develops social skills at different time intervals than public school taught kids.

[admin2]

You guys are ALL right and this is EXACTLY why we don't have political discussions here on HB. Both sides are very solid in their positions and neither is at all swayed by the others arguments regardless of how well they are articulated. Every other forum that becomes political we've seen on the internet eventually becomes a place for name calling as people become polarized in their positions and eventually resort to personal attacks, which fortunately hasn't happened here and it is very much appreciated.

I would ask that everyone please keep it civil here and we can continue to have different types of interesting subject matter with differing opinions - The alternative is to only talk about boating and we sure wouldn't want THAT on a boating forum

[314joey]

I'm just glad my kids are grown, how hard is it to raise a child now, good luck to any who are.............................I pray for my grandkids every night.