V-drive pros, explain manufactures, placement, gearing, 10 vs 12 degree, rebuild procedures, wirl-aways, etc.
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V-drive pros, explain manufactures, placement, gearing, 10 vs 12 degree, rebuild procedures, wirl-aways, etc.
I'm not an expert but I'll try and give some kind of answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by WESTERNAERO
There were many manufacturers of the v-drive gear box (is that what you're talking about?). V-Drive "boat" manufacturers number over 100. Because there's so many different types, styles and configurations of v-drive boats it would take a dictionary sized book to list all possible combinations and proper set ups.
The most widely used gear box's came from Casale. They made/make many different configurations. Placement and gearing is boat specific. Rebuilding varies from one box to the next. Whirl-a-ways? What about 'em? :D
If you can narrow down the year, manufacturer and type of boat, we can probably get close in suggesting shaft angle and rigging placement. Gear selection will vary depending on hp, prop and usage needs.
Trying to get the "in the know" guys to educate the curious, the newbies, the just getting started, etc. Lot of "secret knowledge" out there that the "pros" don't seem to want to share to help the newbies and instead just want to make snide remarks and try to intimidate them.
Whirl-away, prop-release, whatever you choose to call it. Tell us what it is Jerry, why they're used, who makes them, we're can they be bought.
Kind of interested on the history of the whirl-away also .... I've had vdrive boats back in the 80's and never heard anything ever mentioned about them. Did anyone have them back then? drag boats? must be pretty ugly coming to a sudden stop at 100+ mph
Not sure if whirl-away is a trademarked name or not... Here are the pieces (shown in the pic below) and, JERRY, keep me honest but at 4:20 in the video below when you shut off your HONCO in the video, isn't the sound we hear your PROP RELEASE in action???Quote:
Originally Posted by WESTERNAERO
http://youtu.be/RjgIbIQYm58
Attachment 32207
^^^ THis is installed on the OUTPUT of the Vdrive and allows the ratchet/freewheel of the prop because the prop becomes a rudder basically WHEN an engine locks up/stops OR you get a lock up in your drive line for whatever reason, usually resulting in a QUICK out of control turn of the boat and the people getting pitched out...
I for the life of me cant remember who makes the parts in the pic that I posted, maybe BEAVERFAB??? Or you can purchase from Casalle... The spring keeps the two dogs engaged in the driven direction and allows the freewheeling of the prop if something locks the driveline...
I'm sure 7 can give us a very detailed history of prop releases. I know in the early days there was the Algon prop release which installs between the v-drive and the prop shaft. It was good but left a lot of room for improvement which probably explains why Casale got in the game with the Whirl-a-way. Many guys flipped their boats before these were a mainstay. Engine failure or a locked drivetrain turns your prop into a corkscrew shaped skeg without a releasing mechanism that allows your prop to freewheel..Quote:
Originally Posted by westair
There is nothing secret about a v-drive. They come in two general angles, the 12 degree and the 10 degree. There are a few 8 degrees and one or two sevens that I know of. But forget about those.
The prop comes in at the angle determined by the strut. The v-drive takes the engine torsional power and gears it to the prop shaft. So nothing super trick. The 10 degree is shallower, and so with solid mounts, it gets the engine lower in the boat. Lots of race boats prefer 10 degrees for this. 12 degrees are common in family boats and ski type boats. The engine sits higher in the hull (typically). You can use solid shafts from the engine or u-joints. With u-joints you can alter the alignment of the engine slightly. Solid mounts have to be pretty true or they will bind and wear stupid. The better way to run the power out of the engine is off of they flywheel. This is called "drag style". Engines like it way better, as the crank can have a dedicated harmonic balancer, and the power leaves the engine off of the side of the crank that was made to have the power bolted up. However, if you plan on turning left, running the snout of the engine to drive the boat naturally causes the rotational force of the torque of the engine to help the hull load left, and turn left. It is harder on cranks, but this is the way 95% of the circle flats are set up. Rotating either way does not change v-drives or any of the other hardware on the boat. Just the prop. (and direction of the whirl-away, of course)
Don't run a circle prop on a drag boat. Or vice versa. It can get ugly. Like running in reverse. :)
Oh, and the more power you have, the better you need to tie off and solid mount your v-drive. 100% of the forward thrust of the boat comes through that bottom shaft. So make sure you realize this when rigging your boat.
don't drag me into these 3 threads. Its like answering "what's the meaning of life, and what do women what"Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp shooter
Who knows, and who has the time to answer it if they did.
I think if Jerry has a copy of the 1958 Hot Rod Magazine with the article about the first drags at Marine Stadium he will see a paragraph about "one thing being certain about v drive boats, that nobody is certain about anything"
"The More I know learn about engines, the more I realize how little I know" Keith Black
Jerry, whirlaways have been around almost as long as I can remember. Every thing I know about them can be summed up with just this, If you don't have a trans, and no reverse, then use one. That philosophy has never let me down yet.
I believe, but could be wrong, that the Algon is more of drag race release. I don't know too many circle racers that use of like them, because they lack any resistance to release. Zero. Back off the gas, and the prop is freewheeling. Install one in a circle boat, and you notice the different on your first ride. You sure as hell will notice it going into you first turn at the buoy.
Casale made a similar deal and it was not well received. Partially due to the price, and partially due to the "feel." But it was infinitely stronger than the Algon.
Attachment 32226
Paul, you missed one "angle". The original parallel shaft box. :wink2:Quote:
Originally Posted by wannabe
I 100% agree that the box angles got shallower thru the years to allow the engine to set lower, while allowing the shaft angle to get shallower. But you can't get any less angle than "0", and nobody even thinks of using one today.
There are also cases where a 10* is less than the perfect box, as in the situation with OG's Mopar flatty. The engine is sitting a mile high due to the engine design and the pan choice. Put a 10* box in that boat, and its almost be like using a parallel box and a SBC. You'll never get near ideal shaft angle, and forget a solid shaft.
I will only add that too many people seem to be of the belief that box angle and shaft angle are somehow tightly linked. Its two totally independent angles that ultimately determine the engine placement/angle/height. Yes, as the prop shaft angle gets shallower, the box angle CAN get shallower as well, but only if it doesn't require cutting a hole in the bottom of the boat to get the drive line angle correct.
Where to begin? The Algon/Stellings prop release was the first and was introduced in the early 70's. Ray Caselli set most of his records running a 4 sprag release. As many of you know I am building a new version of the Algon at this time. They are out being broached, then out to heat treat and then final machining of the bores. My new version is based on the 4 sprag version but can be run using 2,3 or 4 sprags. Bob, there are several circle guys that prefer an Algon over a Whirlaway. Some claim that they can drive in deeper on the pin and get through the turn quicker. Jerry Cotter is switching on of his SS boats from a Whirlaway to an Algon. The Casale version had more failures of the sprags than success's according to Drew. Since the sprags were in the gear they could only get 2 into play.
V-drives. There are basically 4 manufacturers of v-drive cases, Casale, Menkens, myself and a guy in Texas that builds a drag race only billet case. Menkens builds both cast and billet cases and the billet cases finally take Casale shafts and gears. His cases are all 10*. I build billet cases also. The first run was all 10* cases. I will be building some 8* cases in the next run. Rex of Phillips Marine in AZ. wants one for a GN and Enduro boat he is building for himself. I will be building 2 one off versions for Don Baucher's BAF that will have the bottom of the case raised about 3/4" to accommodate a six* strut angle and the engine placement and capsule setup that was done by Jim Lange. Casale had cast 2 cases for Don but he blew the last one into about 10 pieces at the 2012 World Finals. Casale builds 8,10 and 12* cast splitcase v-dives as well as C-500, C-1000, and C-2000 v-drives which are all 12*
The prop release pictured a few posts back is made by JJ Beaver of Beaverfab Inc. He also makes shafts, lockout handles and couplers among other parts. Both JJ and I buy sell and trade gears as well as rebuild v-drives for many peeps on the various forums.
I am building a couple of one off in/out boxes for Andrew Games' new #550 Crackerbox. Gonna have to give my 2 fingers a rest for now!
Good stuff SeveO, equally as good closing... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by steveo143
And there you have it right from the experts !!!! These are the guys that know how to do things ASK THEM - Steveo helped setup my boat and I run a 10* with a Whirl away in it that makes it much safer for just regular every day use. Changing to a 10* from a 12* in my boat brought all the geometry back together that somebody really messed up along the way by adding a transmission at one time. Everything came into alignment after that was done.
V-drives and Parallel drives are also used in many types of off-road vehicles too.... anything that requires a gear box between a power source and a drive output can use this type of gear box. It's basically for "IN" gear and "OUT" of gear is all. Thats why some people just call it an "IN 'n OUT" box!