The Return of the most infamous HB thread of all time... :D

[Tishimself]

There are two factors at play here with this mind game, and Tish will twist them to fit his theory regardless, but in reality, he is trapped.

There can be two different types of treadmills. Motorized, or free moving. It matters not which we use here. So we will take on both, but the RULES apply to BOTH!

Free wheeling:
We have to assume an absolutely frictionless free wheeling treadmill. A man, dog, horse, bicycle, or top fuel dragster cannot move forward, Its impossible. At the same time, the treadmill will not move if they don't try to move forward. Its the attempt to move that moves the surface. None of them will fall off the tread mill, they just can't move. If a very stiff wind comes along, it can blow them right off the treadmill.
The plane does not need the surface to move forward. It can move forward and never have the treadmill move, except possibly in the same direction the plane is going because the tires drag it along. So now the treadmill, if moving, is going forward in the same direction. If it remains still, the plane moves. if it moves forward, the plane moves. But the plane CANNOT move the treadmill backward because there is no backward force to make it move that direction. The wheel are being dragged by the plane, and POSSIBLY the treadmill as well. The plane is not pushing off the tires, or the treadmill.

Motorized treadmill:

Tish, in his theoretical mind game, wants us to believe the plane has to rev the engine to stay on the tread mill or fall off. No different than any other motorized treadmill. EXCEPT, people, dogs, horses, and top fuel dragsters have 100% fricition that makes them need to "move" to stay on the mill. Stand there, and off you go.
However, our hypothetical plane, gets the same 100% frictionless bearing that were in the above freewheeling treadmill. If the treadmill moves, the plane stays, because it FREEWHEELS just like the above treadmill. However, because there ZERO friction between the plane and the tread mill, it is free to move forward, and as was stated before, the wheels simply double the speed of the surface until the plane takes off. But it can take off.

You can't have it both ways Tish. This is bench racing, remember.

Oh, oh wow. LOL. That was mind boggling, to say the least. I'll have whatever he's having. LOL. The treadmill is a non issue. All it needs to do is be large enough and long enough and fast enough to fulfill the requirements of the question. The friction is between the wheels of the plane and the surface of the treadmill. If anything, you need bearings on all those wheels that can withstand the stress. Again, all you need to know is this. It's all about the speed of the wheels. period. YOu get caught up in all the other BS and that's your downfall. The wheels transmit the thrust into movement. as long as the treadmill is moving in the OPPOSITE direction the plane is traveling, and the treadmill and wheels are moving at the same speed but in opposite directions, the plane will not move. Deal with it. YOu have overthought this way too far. It's actually very simple.

With one caveat. the original question ONLY posed the problem using a 747. There are other types of planes that will fly. The 747 and other types of aircraft will not.

[2manymustangs]

Oh, oh wow. LOL. That was mind boggling, to say the least. I'll have whatever he's having. LOL. The treadmill is a non issue. All it needs to do is be large enough and long enough and fast enough to fulfill the requirements of the question. The friction is between the wheels of the plane and the surface of the treadmill. If anything, you need bearings on all those wheels that can withstand the stress. Again, all you need to know is this. It's all about the speed of the wheels. period. YOu get caught up in all the other BS and that's your downfall. The wheels transmit the thrust into movement. as long as the treadmill is moving in the OPPOSITE direction the plane is traveling, and the treadmill and wheels are moving at the same speed but in opposite directions, the plane will not move. Deal with it. YOu have overthought this way too far. It's actually very simple.

With one caveat. the original question ONLY posed the problem using a 747. There are other types of planes that will fly. The 747 and other types of aircraft will not.

Can a man pull one of your train cars with his teeth if the track is level? If so how can this be, the train weighs TONS...

[Tishimself]

Can a man pull one of your train cars with his teeth if the track is level? If so how can this be, the train weighs TONS...

Maybe he has great teeth?? Maybe he uses polydent? No idea.

[2manymustangs]

Maybe he has great teeth?? Maybe he uses polydent? No idea.

All he has to do is overcome the rolling resistance of the train, with steel on steel its not much assuming the track is level... true???

thrust is thrust is thrust... as soon as the brakes on the aero-plane are UNlocked and the JET thrust starts to build OR the prop spins up and thrust builds up, the backward speed of the plane will slow and it will come to a stop when the thrust is greater enough to overcome the rolling resistance of the pneumatic tires on the conveyor belt/friction of the bearings from the weight of the plane... Any additional thrust will put him in forward motion...

[Tishimself]

All he has to do is overcome the rolling resistance of the train, with steel on steel its not much assuming the track is level... true???

thrust is thrust is thrust... as soon as the brakes on the aero-plane are UNlocked and the JET thrust starts to build OR the prop spins up and thrust builds up, the backward speed of the plane will slow and it will come to a stop when the thrust is greater enough to overcome the rolling resistance of the pneumatic tires on the conveyor belt/friction of the bearings from the weight of the plane... Any additional thrust will put him in forward motion...

Fpr what it's worth, a train wheel, any train wheel, sits on top of the railhead on a spot the size of a dime. Eight dimes is all the friction you get. No more, no less. Like I said, there are literally thousands upon thousands of pages of people battling out this question going back to the beginning of the 90's...no one side ever gives in, no one ever gets the other guys point. Personally, I could care less. This thread proves that the same things that made the thread on the first HB so virulent are still here. It was fun, but I'm out. You guys take it from here.....<B>

[2manymustangs]

Fpr what it's worth, a train wheel, any train wheel, sits on top of the railhead on a spot the size of a dime. Eight dimes is all the friction you get. No more, no less. Like I said, there are literally thousands upon thousands of pages of people battling out this question going back to the beginning of the 90's...no one side ever gives in, no one ever gets the other guys point. Personally, I could care less. This thread proves that the same things that made the thread on the first HB so virulent are still here. It was fun, but I'm out. You guys take it from here.....<B>

SO, a guy can apply 100lbs of force and overcome the friction created by the 58,000 lbs train car, doesn't it stand to reason that a jet engine with enough thrust to lift as much weight or more 60'000 feet into the air, it can overcome the "rolling resistence" of the weight of the aero-plane on the bearings/tires EVEN if it has to overcome the friction of an extra 800MPH of surface footage/bearing speed??? Once the plane has THRUSTED itself to a stop with minimal thrust it is CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF...

[gn7]

Fpr what it's worth, a train wheel, any train wheel, sits on top of the railhead on a spot the size of a dime. Eight dimes is all the friction you get. No more, no less. Like I said, there are literally thousands upon thousands of pages of people battling out this question going back to the beginning of the 90's...no one side ever gives in, no one ever gets the other guys point. Personally, I could care less. This thread proves that the same things that made the thread on the first HB so virulent are still here. It was fun, but I'm out. You guys take it from here.....<B>

It doesn't get settled because the "it can't fly" crowd what to come up with bullshit that keeps it grounded. No real physics, just new rules that say the friction equals the thrust. PROVE IT!
Like I said, its bench racing at its finest. Ever bench race? Ever win? Those that always claim to win bench races are those that have never actually raced. ANYTHING! EVER! Those are the hardest to beat.

[Tishimself]

It doesn't get settled because the "it can't fly" crowd what to come up with bullshit that keeps it grounded. No real physics, just new rules that say the friction equals the thrust. PROVE IT!
Like I said, its bench racing at its finest. Ever bench race? Ever win? Those that always claim to win bench races are those that have never actually raced. ANYTHING! EVER! Those are the hardest to beat.

Once upon a time brother, I argued on the other site just because I liked to argue. I didn't care what the topic was, as long as it was a heated lively discussion. And I got a lot of folks mad at me, and I got banned from that other site. When I was getting ready to post this up, I knew it had the potential to be as harsh a thread as it once was, but there was just enough doubt that I posted it up anyways. Now, I find that the back and forth bores me to no end. Call it getting older, I don't know. But I know there are far more interesting and entertaining things to talk about than planes and treadmills. I gotta go find something, anything else to talk about, or finish up some work on this car I am building for the layout......

[gn7]

Can a man pull one of your train cars with his teeth if the track is level? If so how can this be, the train weighs TONS...

Myself and one other person moved 2, 35,000 lb chillers on a gantry crane 50 60 ft at the Glen Canyon dam a few years back. Hardest part was stopping them, not moving them.


Lets take Tish's imaginary plane and change it up a little. Lets hang it from a continuous beam, on a cable to a beam trolley. Now any 5 year old can move the plane on the beam. Easy. Now start moving the beam, as fast as you care to. All the planes prop has to do, is over come the friction of the beam trolley to reamin still. Its not much. To move forward, it only has to produce more THRUST than it takes to hold it still while the beam moves.
The "effort" the plane needs to put up to remain still while the beam moves is so low, it could be held in position by one person with a rope. Its only the friction put up by the trolley wheels, which very little. If you can move the plane, you can hold the plane.

You see, Tish wants ALL the thrust to equal ALL the friction, and thats fanatasy. Its bench racing at its finest.
He isn't applying any real physics to his mind game, just what he sees in his mind. It seems plausible to him, therefore, it is.