The Return of the most infamous HB thread of all time... :D

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Originally Posted by Tishimself

OK. lets get it straight here. Here is the way it works. Take the plane, set it on the treadmill. turn on the treadmill, spin it up so that the wheels on the plane are turning, just as if it is taxiing. AS you increase the power on the jet engines, the speed of the treadmill increases also. AS time goes by, the treadmill is spinning the wheels at 300+mph. Maybe faster. This counters the wheels ability to turn thrust into movement through the wheels. IF the plane can not move forward, it can not generate lift across the flight surfaces of the wing. Hard as the engines "screw" themselves through the air, they cannot overcome the negative forces generated by the treadmill turning in the opposite direction. Which brings in law of physics which states that "For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction". This argument was always limited to jet powered aircraft, as a plane with the prop in the nose generate airflow over the wing surfaces through prop wash. Same with planes with engines on the wings. Such as a King Air. (my favorite plane). But for aircraft with an engine under the wing, with thrust generated after the wing surfaces, ( a jet) there is no source for air over the flight surfaces, because no movement can be generated because the wheels have no ability to roll the aircraft forfard. Remember, as the aircraft moves, the speed of the treadmill increases till the speed returns to a zero indicator. Got it? :D:D:D

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Did you read what you wrote here. You want to take another shot that? That's hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Tishimself

OK. lets get it straight here. Here is the way it works. Take the plane, set it on the treadmill. turn on the treadmill, spin it up so that the wheels on the plane are turning, just as if it is taxiing. AS you increase the power on the jet engines, the speed of the treadmill increases also. AS time goes by, the treadmill is spinning the wheels at 300+mph. Maybe faster. This counters the wheels ability to turn thrust into movement through the wheels. IF the plane can not move forward, it can not generate lift across the flight surfaces of the wing. Hard as the engines "screw" themselves through the air, they cannot overcome the negative forces generated by the treadmill turning in the opposite direction. Which brings in law of physics which states that "For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction". This argument was always limited to jet powered aircraft, as a plane with the prop in the nose generate airflow over the wing surfaces through prop wash. Same with planes with engines on the wings. Such as a King Air. (my favorite plane). But for aircraft with an engine under the wing, with thrust generated after the wing surfaces, ( a jet) there is no source for air over the flight surfaces, because no movement can be generated because the wheels have no ability to roll the aircraft forfard. Remember, as the aircraft moves, the speed of the treadmill increases till the speed returns to a zero indicator. Got it? :D:D:D

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And what asshole did you pull this out of? You must of heard this on Big Bang Theory, Right?

Aircraft (prop or jet) generate thrust. They pull themselves through air. Bernoulli's principal and the wing allows them to fly.

The speed the wheels are turning or the direction they're turning is irrelevant.

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AS you increase the power on the jet engines, the speed of the treadmill increases also. AS time goes by, the treadmill is spinning the wheels at 300+mph. Maybe faster.

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Why? Why do you say the treadmills is spinning the wheels faster and faster?


Lets start with some "ground" rules, what is the FIXED speed of your treadmill? Tishimself, lets make it interesting:

The treadmill is ONE MILE LONG, fixed speed of 6MPH (ten minute mile)
The engines on the aero-plane are NOT running
There is a cliff at both ends that drops to the abyss and the plane is sitting at the FAR end and has one mile / ten minutes to throttle UP and get airborn...

OR else...

Press GO and the airplane is now moving in reverse at 6MPH...

Now what???

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Originally Posted by Hotboat

Aircraft (prop or jet) generate thrust. They pull themselves through air. Bernoulli's principal and the wing allows them to fly.

The speed the wheels are turning or the direction they're turning is irrelevant.

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Well, lets look at it from a different direction. Lets look at the landing gear as being the same as roller skates on your feet. If your on a treadmill with skates on, the only way you can move forward is by holding onto a stationary object. I.E. and handle bar, or a rope. Otherwise, you might roll back, actually. That's what the air is for the plane. It's a rope or stationary object that it grabs onto and pulls itself forward, unlike the tires on a car for instance. Which lets it move forward regardless of wheel speed. Right? Sorta. As you move forward, the treadmill speed increases, meaning you have to work harder to keep moving forward due to increased friction between the wheels of your skates and the treadmill. As the speeds increase, so does the strength needed to pull yourself forward. Sooner or later, it's just too much work, and you stop moving forward. This is the same with the plane, it can only pull forward so hard, and then that's it. Same here. Everyone concentrates on the wheels, and not the forces themselves at work here. The wheels are only the instrument with which the engines transmit thrust into movement. They are not powered.

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Originally Posted by Ziggy

Those pics should stay in the long lost files, honestly. Not something that would be productive today.....but the memories will be lasting til alzheimer sets in.
God bless the Canatard:)

From my POS T-mobile thingie

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I have to agree with Ziggy! those that were let into the Box were trusted not to re-post the pixs anywhere else, and great memories is an under statement, but I would have to admit I wouldn't mind seeing them one more time!

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Originally Posted by 2manymustangs

Why? Why do you say the treadmills is spinning the wheels faster and faster?


Lets start with some "ground" rules, what is the FIXED speed of your treadmill? Tishimself, lets make it interesting:

The treadmill is ONE MILE LONG, fixed speed of 6MPH (ten minute mile)
The engines on the aero-plane are NOT running
There is a cliff at both ends that drops to the abyss and the plane is sitting at the FAR end and has one mile / ten minutes to throttle UP and get airborn...

OR else...

Press GO and the airplane is now moving in reverse at 6MPH...

Now what???

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The fallacy of your logic (as I see it at least), is that you're forgetting something. The wheels of the airplane are connected to the plane, and friction exists between the runway (conveyor belt) and the wheels.

For the plane to take off, it has to reach a certain airspeed - the speed at which the air passing over the wing is enough to create lift. In order for the plane, which is on the ground, to reach a forward speed, its wheels would need to be travelling in a net forward direction. In order for this to happen, their speed would have to be GREATER than that of the belt running beneath them.

If, as the above indicates, the speeds are ALWAYS equal, then the plane will not move.

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Originally Posted by Tishimself

The fallacy of your logic (as I see it at least), is that you're forgetting something. The wheels of the airplane are connected to the plane, and friction exists between the runway (conveyor belt) and the wheels.

For the plane to take off, it has to reach a certain airspeed - the speed at which the air passing over the wing is enough to create lift. In order for the plane, which is on the ground, to reach a forward speed, its wheels would need to be travelling in a net forward direction. In order for this to happen, their speed would have to be GREATER than that of the belt running beneath them.

If, as the above indicates, the speeds are ALWAYS equal, then the plane will not move.

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DO you agree with the framework OR do you want to pick a speed?

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Originally Posted by 2manymustangs

DO you agree with the framework OR do you want to pick a speed?

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There is no set speed. They (no matter the number) should always be equal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YORCk1BN7QY
Now STFU!
Says it right there in the video. Wheel speed has nothing to do with air speed.

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Originally Posted by 2manymustangs

DO you agree with the framework OR do you want to pick a speed?

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I am ashamed of you Bruce. The speed is irrelevant. There is an underlying physical property here that he is depending on, and he keeps it a constant in his head, regardless if the physics are there to back it up. Its a hypothetical no rules question. Its BENCH RACING at its finest. You can't win, because the "tread mill won't let you, regardless if the tread mill is real or fantasy. Its what Tish "sees" the tread mill doing, regardless if a REAL tread mill would actually do what he sees.

Its a mind game, its hypothetical.

Snoc had this dead on, his wording was a little twisted. But I see what he was eluding to. tish would never allow that in the hypothetical mind game.

I can have Tish twisting and doing the mmmm and aaaaa in one post. But he will give the ole Obama spin and make the hypothetical physics win out.

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Originally Posted by WESTERNAERO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YORCk1BN7QY
Now STFU!
Says it right there in the video. Wheel speed has nothing to do with air speed.

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That is an incorrect example as it was originally asked. Because the plane has the engine in the nose, it's an ultralight, and it has a thrust to weight ratio almost equivalent to that of an RC aircraft that test was a joke, and they made fools of themselves. It was also able to generate wind over the wings. The original aircraft was a 747.

Here's the answer to the question no matter how you phrase it.

If the plane stays in the same place, relative to the ground, it will not take off.

If the plane moves, it will take off.

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Originally Posted by Tishimself

There is no set speed. They (no matter the number) should always be equal.

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But there is a set speed... HOw fast is your treadmill? 6 minute mile or 10 minute mile? and remember, the treadmill is only one mile long, then off into the abyss...

What does the treadmill represent? the rotation of the earth?

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Originally Posted by 2manymustangs

But there is a set speed... HOw fast is your treadmill? 6 minute mile or 10 minute mile? and remember, the treadmill is only one mile long, then off into the abyss...

What does the treadmill represent? the rotation of the earth?

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There is no set speed for the treadmill. It can go as fast as it needs to in order to counter any forward movement of the plane. Remember, the moment the wheels start turning faster than the treadmill, the plane will move, once they are spinning at the same speed, the plane will stop. Since the wheels will not ever be able to spin faster than the treadmill, the plane can not move. As for what it represents. Nothing. Its just the instrument used to illustrate this version of the question.

I posted in the original HB thread and said it will still take off.

I am a pilot, although I have not flown by myself for over 20 years LOL

The type of plane does not matter, its not like the plane in the Myth buster episode can push enough air over the wings from the prop to fly, if it did then it could take off vertically. Which it can not.

The only issue is if the wheels can not spin twice as fast as the take off speed of the plane. If they can then you will take off regardless of if its a Piper Cub or a 747. In other words if take off speed is 100mph then the wheels need to be able to handle 200mph on the treadmill scenario.

MP

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Originally Posted by 2manymustangs

But there is a set speed... HOw fast is your treadmill? 6 minute mile or 10 minute mile? and remember, the treadmill is only one mile long, then off into the abyss...

What does the treadmill represent? the rotation of the earth?

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Fuck the speed, its irrelevant, and you DO NOT NEED SOME TOP SPEED to have the plane take off. You are beginning to sound like him. He already told you, the treadmills top speed match the plane's. Well duh, of course he did. But it still DOES NOT MATTER!!! That's not whats play here. Go read snoc's post over again, and think about you or a car or a top fuel dragster in a treadmill, and then an airplane. Then you MIGHT get it. MIGHT is the operative word here. I am not counting on it though.

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Originally Posted by Cat & Mice

I posted in the original HB thread and said it will still take off.

I am a pilot, although I have not flown by myself for over 20 years LOL

The type of plane does not matter, its not like the plane in the Myth buster episode can push enough air over the wings from the prop to fly, if it did then it could take off vertically. Which it can not. The only issue is if the wheels can not spin twice as fast as the take off speed of the plane. If they can then you will take off regardless of if its a Piper Cub or a 747. In other words if take off speed is 100mph then the wheels need to be able to handle 200mph on the treadmill scenario.

MP

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ding ding ding ding!!!!

Tell the man what he won






A free chicken dinner.

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Originally Posted by Cat & Mice

I posted in the original HB thread and said it will still take off.

I am a pilot, although I have not flown by myself for over 20 years LOL

The type of plane does not matter, its not like the plane in the Myth buster episode can push enough air over the wings from the prop to fly, if it did then it could take off vertically. Which it can not.

The only issue is if the wheels can not spin twice as fast as the take off speed of the plane. If they can then you will take off regardless of if its a Piper Cub or a 747. In other words if take off speed is 100mph then the wheels need to be able to handle 200mph on the treadmill scenario.

MP

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There is no top speed for the treadmill. It can turn as fast as it needs to in order to counter the wheels. 200, 400, 1000...no limit. The plane in the example has a power to weight ratio off the charts. If that guy wanted, he could take off from a standing start with a 5 foot taxi. It is absolutely possible for a propped plane to take from a standing start. That's what the plane in the example is designed to do...watch this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsIzCqAQOck

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Originally Posted by Tishimself

That is an incorrect example as it was originally asked. Because the plane has the engine in the nose, it's an ultralight, and it has a thrust to weight ratio almost equivalent to that of an RC aircraft that test was a joke, and they made fools of themselves. It was also able to generate wind over the wings. The original aircraft was a 747.

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I give up. Think what you want.