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I have already checked that out. I can drop an engine off at a boat builder and have no problem getting the boat financed. You think the banks know all about Pfaff, Teague, or GT.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuauLounge
Now buying an unrigged bare hull, that's another story. You'll need cash or a personal credit line.
..................and - if either of those were jets, it would help make your point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp shooter
Good point, I forgot to consider that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gn7
I wonder. On the outside looking in, it's sometime hard for me to understand why the Mercury engines are so expensive. On the website/sellsheet, there is very little information provided. I'd love to know the composition of the rotating assembly, cam, and intake/TB specs.Quote:
Originally Posted by gn7
:lmao....And showing that you spend more on your trailer than the two boats in it doesn't help either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaZR
You I/O guys irritate me sometimes. But, in this case - you *might* have a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by GRADS
Its not Mercury as in Mercruiser that is so expensive, although even a black Mercruiser is way over priced. But the Merc "RACING" blue engines re-define rape.Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaZR
The industry is not what it was. I saw it coming when Schuster started laying up Tahiti hulls as fast as the resin would set up and standing hulls on their transoms in the shop waiting for a customer to walk in. Choose your interior and engine and 4 days later you were on the water. 5500 out the door. 90% of them were crate Olds engines with a few Harman marine 427 or 454s with a oil pan change and some plumbing changes to make them work. The crate engines from GM were dirt cheap. And they sold a zillion of them to every person that wanted a boat but need instructions included when he bought a screwdriver. And it only got worse and worse.
You wanted to go 100 in 1968, you better know how to build a boat. Now, you need to know how to write a check.
I chuckle at the thought that Merc gets that kind of money for a warranty. That's all they are buying.
Once I learned what was being used in the 1350/1650 twin cam engine, it pretty much told you whats NOT in the 565 or 600, let alone the 520 and 540.
This is the crank in the 1350/1650. I assure you, its NOT a Sonny Bryant or Winberg.
I am almost certain it is a Lunati. Its most likely a "Pro" but Merc's replacement cost is $6000.00 A Lunati Pro crank is about 1700.00
A Sonny Bryant EN30B billet is less than 4000.00 LIST!! and nobody pays list!!
The rods are even worse, in that I'am pretty sure they are Lunati H beam IMPORT rods!!!
The pistons are 476 apiece, head gasket is 373 EA, and these are the "online discount" prices.
For 6000 this should look like jewelry.
Attachment 33491
This is a Sonny Bryant billet.
ANY QUESTIONS?
Attachment 33492
If you're thinking about installing a new 500+HP engine in a new boat (with a 2013 or 2014 HIN) your choices are extremely limited -- only three marine engine manufacturers currently have emission certified engines over 500 HP (Mercury, Ilmor and Teague). For the past couple of years other independent engine builders have continued to build and sell new 500+ HP engines in violation of EPA and CARB regulations on the 'down-low'. Up until recently, enforcement has been very minimal, but that is changing and small engine builders are beginning to be checked and when they are found in violation the fines are hefty, so much so that they would likely put them out of business. Don't think for a minute that Mercury Racing isn't getting a premium price for that certification. If you buy a new boat with a non-emissions certified new engine, the buyer is likely to have an issue/problem when it comes time to register the vessel (more states are beginning to crack down at time of registration). Unless the engine is specifically designated for racing/competition only, it better have the low-emissions certification sticker and paperwork to go with it.
If you read Grad's comments during the last circle boat race "live stream" you'd realize he doesn't know the difference....Quote:
Originally Posted by FormulaZR
And what trailer would that be...?Quote:
Originally Posted by GRADS
You do realize that ONLY applies to boats sold and registered in CALIF. and only applies to engine UNDER a certain power. It was originally under 500, it has been raised to under 600. You will notice the 600 and up Merc Racing ARE NOT EPA and CARB certified, because their is no certification for 600 and up engines. There are EPA standards that cover all 50 states, but they are weak compared to the CARB emission standards. Virtually any EFI engine can meet the EPA standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havasuing
So Phaff, GT, and every other Tom Dick and Harry with a tool box can sell 600+ engines all he likes.
For the cost of a Merc 565, I can easily afford to buy 1000HP from damn near anybody else.
But for now, the EASIEST way around it is get out your own tool box and built it yourself. There NO LAW that states the boat has to meet any regs, only that the boat builders cannot sell boats with non certified engines. Says nothing about what I can build.
The EPA marine engine emission law (although somewhat less strict than CARB regulations) is now effective in all 50 states, and whether the engine is able to pass the test or not must still go through the prescribed testing protocol in order to receive certification (regardless of horsepower). California was ahead of the curve in passing marine emission laws by a couple of years, but EPA has now caught up. The Teague series of engines (825, 985/1025, 1200 and 1335 HP) are CARB certified as low-emisssion (3 star) engines and approved for California sale. The Mercury Racing and Ilmor high horsepower engines fall into a different catgeory ('large' manufacturers as opposed to a 'small' builder like a GT, Pfaff, etc.) They are using emission "credits" accrued from their production of lower horsepower engines to allow the sale of the high performance products. It's way more complicated than it probably needs to be, but John McKnight at NMMA has a good handle on this and of course you can always call CARB at the El Monte office and ask for Jeff Lowery or Kevin Curley for specific questions, both are quite helpful. And you are correct -- homebuilt engines are an entirely different matter and are still unrestricted.
Very good info 👍
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Truly GOOD info would a be a recommendation as the lube you should use , and whether you grab your angles or just your knee caps when which Merc Racing engine box on your engine options at the dealer. Every customer is entitled to dinner, and show before checking the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotboat
Why isn't this thread in the Tech forum instead of the sandbox? Oh, I remember.
At least ogshotgun should be happy. It is boat related.
Good point, I'll move itQuote:
Originally Posted by gn7
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The are 6 ways to skin a cat, and half of them are done every day by engine builders selling engines for boats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Havasuing
There are loop holes in the law, and I have no doubt the gestapo will close them all in time. Its the American way to squeeze the little guy any way they can. Whether its a small builder, or a do it yourselfer. They will find a way to outlaw it. Its not the industry and sport it was in the 60s. The boats, the builders, and the people involved on both sides, builders and consumers have drastically changed. I look at this period as the "muscle car" period of the 60s. Before that you had to built a fast car, then you just wrote a check. Then they disappeared. We are currently in the "just write a check" phase in boating.
There is no engine tech section is there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotboat
I will agree they are expensive. However overpriced is a relative term. You can build more for less but the product isn't the only thing you are buying. Mercury sells the most over engineered motor on the market. I have driven and worked on a lot of different builders motors and it is hard to find issue with the mercury product. Their warranty, customer service, and dealer network are far superior to the competition. A warranty issue can be resolved just about anywhere not just at one shop. That is worth a lot to people and it shows when you look at mercury's sales. I can fix and build my own motors and there is no way I could afford the 1200 hp in my boat if it said mercury racing on it. However as a shop owner I can certainly see the appeal of their products. I get far less complaints of any kind in regards to the blur motors as I do with all other builders motors combined. Is it worth the extra money? That's for the individual to decide.
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Like I said, you are buying a warranty. albeit a damn good warranty. You can throw in customers service and nationwide network in there as well. Its the prime factor in what created the Mercury dynasty they enjoy today. Not power. Not price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Menace Marine
Most over engineered? Now that's a relative term.
Your in it. Its all encompassing.Quote:
Originally Posted by WESTERNAERO
helicopters, cameras, phones, trucks, cars, motorcycles, food, booze, and yes, the occasional boat and engine.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the tech section to be:Quote:
Originally Posted by gn7
V-drives
Big Baller Inboards
Jets
Eggbeaters
Engines
Drives
Props
P.O.S. wave makers
Lake lice