Communist Core math

[MrDenton]

Come on, there's got to be someone out here that is a teacher or is married to one that thinks this shit is crazy. So far they're all tight lipped and defending it. Too afraid to speak out against the system? But will sure raise holy hell for saying God in class.
What ever happened to multiplying the number given? What is this crap in the little boxes? My son has been high honor roll for 5 years straight, now he misses 8 out of 12 questions? He even knew the right answer using regular math, but got confused doing it the new dumber way.
On top of all this, how am I as a parent supposed to help him study or correct him if he's confused?
47081


Oath Keeper

[Bobbytheboozer]

Wtf? Who is the fucktard that made this shit up?

[Eli]

Come on, there's got to be someone out here that is a teacher or is married to one that thinks this shit is crazy. So far they're all tight lipped and defending it. Too afraid to speak out against the system? But will sure raise holy hell for saying God in class.
What ever happened to multiplying the number given? What is this crap in the little boxes? My son has been high honor roll for 5 years straight, now he misses 8 out of 12 questions? He even knew the right answer using regular math, but got confused doing it the new dumber way.
On top of all this, how am I as a parent supposed to help him study or correct him if he's confused?
47081


Oath Keeper

I get the reason why people have to learn long multiplication, which we use calculators for, but what's the deal with changing math that we already don't do without a calculator? Are they trying to make it even less necessary to learn?

I'd raise hell and shout "One Nation Under God" in between the "WTF is this" comments.


Sent from my Bat Cave

[Bobbytheboozer]

I get the reason why people have to learn long multiplication, which we use calculators for, but what's the deal with changing math that we already don't do without a calculator? Are they trying to make it even less necessary to learn?

I'd raise hell and shout "One Nation Under God" in between the "WTF is this" comments.


Sent from my Bat Cave
Preach it sistah!

[Skav]

My son is in 6th grade and has failed the last 3 tests because I helped him review. I show him how to do the problem, double check the answer and he understands it. Next day he comes home all upset because he missed 12 out of 15 problems on the test. I check and the answers are right. He just didn't get the answer the new way. It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen. It takes 5 minutes to do a problem that should take 1 minute. The thing that really chaps me is that I asked his teacher to call/email me to discuss how I can help him study better. That was two weeks ago and still no contact.

I'm frustrated because I feel like I can't help him study anymore. It doesn't logically make sense to solve the problem the way cc is asking yo to solve it.

Total waste of time and our kids are really going to suffer for it.

[MrDenton]

I guess we now know why these elected officials can't balance a budget. Or think a small business can afford a 67% payroll increase to its unskilled labor.


Oath Keeper

[Eli]

I don't have kids, but this is very concerning. Is it just in specific school districts? Maybe you need to contact someone at the district level.


Sent from my Bat Cave

[MrDenton]

I feel ya Skav. I'm really worried about the way they are changing the rules halfway through the game. Are colleges going to put into consideration the lower GPA's because if the rule change?
Is an employer going to want to check to make sure they show their work to get the answer or are they just going to want the right answer?


Oath Keeper

[MrDenton]

It's supposed to be nation wide. It's another Obama blunder. Reinventing the wheel just to make him and his nut swinger wife look smart.


Oath Keeper

[2manymustangs]

Greg:

I see what he did and why the product didn’t match the correct answer, when he multiplied 70x2 he is really actually multiplying 70x20 because the "2" is in the tens column. SO when adding the product of 70x2 (140) and the product of 70x7 (490) he should have the 140 shifted to the left so that it is 1+0 then 4+4 then 9+0 then lastly 0+0 for a sum of 1890 :D

I'm with you, I fought these new techniques, quick ways, improved ideas and finally gave up and let my wife handle it... :( I don't know what to tell U broHAM...

[MrDenton]

Brenda told me they figured it out. He did exactly what you said about the zero.
Found this...
http://www.corestandards.org/Math/


Oath Keeper

[C-2]

My son is in 6th grade and has failed the last 3 tests because I helped him review. I show him how to do the problem, double check the answer and he understands it. Next day he comes home all upset because he missed 12 out of 15 problems on the test. I check and the answers are right. He just didn't get the answer the new way. It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen. It takes 5 minutes to do a problem that should take 1 minute. The thing that really chaps me is that I asked his teacher to call/email me to discuss how I can help him study better. That was two weeks ago and still no contact.

I'm frustrated because I feel like I can't help him study anymore. It doesn't logically make sense to solve the problem the way cc is asking yo to solve it.

Total waste of time and our kids are really going to suffer for it.

X2, sixth grade here too and my personal favorite is when they ask to "explain" the math answer. Wait, I thought that's what the answer does? That's when you realize as a parent, your "help" is useless since we only know "dumb" math.

I was in a computer programming class last semester and the instructor says "Come on guys, this is the same math you learned in sixth grade". Uh, not 37 years ago (math). :swear

[LB247XS]

Wtf? Who is the fucktard that made this shit up?
OBAMA

broadcasting live from the LBC

[Bobbytheboozer]

OBAMA

broadcasting live from the LBC
Jesus. :(

[2manymustangs]

Brenda told me they figured it out. He did exactly what you said about the zero.
Found this...
http://www.corestandards.org/Math/


Oath Keeper

I'm sure you still think of him like this, awsome videos... Dylan is such a beautiful young man, praise him for his achievements (honor roll), I regret not doing that more with Brandon... :(

http://youtu.be/4AlYM1QyQd4

http://youtu.be/r4PBWnBlmMA

[76Bonneville]

My wife has been teaching for 30 years, and says it's a bunch of crap.
She has seen this thinking outside the box theories of teaching/learning before.
There are a few kids that will do well with it, but most need to be taught the traditional way.

Check this kid out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDJTJTAXx7k

[nowski]

You want to see how are kids are doing against the world in Math Reading And Science look at these rankings. When common core is done with this country we will have hit rock bottom!!!


http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12

[MrDenton]

Thanks Bruce. Yea, he's a whole lot smarter than I ever was. He'll catch on to this and make it his bitch. But as a father that wants nothing more than for him to succeed, I worry.


Oath Keeper

[riverrunner1984]

I listen to a lot of AM talk radio on my long commute home and heard Oklahoma is the first state to drop common core due to diminishing grades. By the looks of it, several other states are going to be dropping it as well.
The fed took away federal funding to schools in Oklahoma after it was dropped. Problem is, the funding that was taken away has been in place long before common core was in place. This will eventually end up in the courts to get resolved.
Bottom line it's a POS and u think we are going to see more stated dropping common core.

[Paul65K]

This thread is starting to smell political to me............Just sayin' :wink2:

[HB Vic]

Idk. Is communism political or a state of mind? Lol

[Paul65K]

Idk. Is communism political or a state of mind? Lol
It's a VERY controversial government mandated program that is being forced on schools in order for them to maintain federal funding........doesn't get any more political than that IMO......just sayin :D

[HB Vic]

Well I like controversial but political gives me a belly ache :D

[Paul65K]

Well I like controversial but political gives me a belly ache :D
In that case I won't mention how this is just one more way for the left to indoctrinate future generations and dumb them down so they won't be able to see what this country is becoming........as I wouldn't want to give you indigestion this early in the morning :hilarious:

[2manymustangs]

Idk. Is communism political or a state of mind? Lol

I thought it was a place that hippies used to hang out in the 60's and 70's... :grad:




In that case I won't mention how this is just one more way for the left to indoctrinate future generations and dumb them down so they won't be able to see what this country is becoming........as I wouldn't want to give you indigestion this early in the morning :hilarious:

^^^ :biggrin:

[2manymustangs]

I listen to a lot of AM talk radio on my long commute home and heard Oklahoma is the first state to drop common core due to diminishing grades. By the looks of it, several other states are going to be dropping it as well.
The fed took away federal funding to schools in Oklahoma after it was dropped. Problem is, the funding that was taken away has been in place long before common core was in place. This will eventually end up in the courts to get resolved.
Bottom line it's a POS and u think we are going to see more stated dropping common core.

Wont the state lottery make up for the revenue gap? :stir:

[riverrunner1984]

in that case i won't mention how this is just one more way for the left to indoctrinate future generations and dumb them down so they won't be able to see what this country is becoming........as i wouldn't want to give you indigestion this early in the morning :hilarious:

exactly!!!

[riverrunner1984]

Does anyone know if charter schools have to follow common core?

[Paul65K]

How's your tummy feeling Homer??

[HB Vic]

I just barfed all over my bagel 😷

[Paul65K]

I just barfed all over my bagel 
Now that's funny :lmao

[C-2]

Does anyone know if charter schools have to follow common core?

Don't know about charter, but my daughter attends a private school and they follow it.

[riverrunner1984]

Don't know about charter, but my daughter attends a private school and they follow it.

Wow I would have never thought private schools would follow it...

[2manymustangs]

I just barfed all over my bagel ��

THis post is worthless without pics... :D

[Eli]

I'm just glad I don't have kids, I wouldn't be calm about not being able to help them with their homework.

The positive side is most of the parents on this site are great parents and will figure out how to help with homework. I have a girlfriend who is a teacher, I'm going to pick her brain today.


Sent from my Bat Cave

[HB Vic]

THis post is worthless without pics... :D

Lmfao. Thanks for the laugh buddy

[2manymustangs]

Wow I would have never thought private schools would follow it...

Homeschool is the way to go... You can teach your kids the way you wish... :) It is highly organized and there are several curriculum providers to choose from, one of my close friends creates/publishes/sells U.S. HISTORY home school curriculum...

There are MANY tight knit homeschool groups where the parents take turns teaching certain subjects based on their vocation/profession/degrees/interest...

There are also MANY homeschool oriented athletic/sports/social events...

[SnoC653]

I get the reason why people have to learn long multiplication, which we use calculators for, but what's the deal with changing math that we already don't do without a calculator? Are they trying to make it even less necessary to learn?

I'd raise hell and shout "One Nation Under God" in between the "WTF is this" comments.


Sent from my Bat Cave

There is more to it than what has been discussed. But, there is sufficient grounds for some to be concerned. I'll go into my view at the end of this post.


Greg:

I see what he did and why the product didn’t match the correct answer, when he multiplied 70x2 he is really actually multiplying 70x20 because the "2" is in the tens column. SO when adding the product of 70x2 (140) and the product of 70x7 (490) he should have the 140 shifted to the left so that it is 1+0 then 4+4 then 9+0 then lastly 0+0 for a sum of 1890 :D

I'm with you, I fought these new techniques, quick ways, improved ideas and finally gave up and let my wife handle it... :( I don't know what to tell U broHAM...

Bruce the method you described was called new math back in the 60's. Remember your parents ranting about it when they tried to help you with your homework?


In that case I won't mention how this is just one more way for the left to indoctrinate future generations and dumb them down so they won't be able to see what this country is becoming........as I wouldn't want to give you indigestion this early in the morning :hilarious:

Is it really? While I'm not a fan of Common Core, the problem as I see it is most people don't understand what it really is. Let me start by saying while I have no kids in school (except grandkids) and my wife is a special needs pre-school teacher; I feel your pain. Correction: I felt your pain. As I mentioned above in the 60's it was new math. I would get problems marked wrong on a consistent basis for not showing my work. The answers were all right, but without showing the process the work was marked wrong. And the same is happening here. The answer is a fact. The questions aren't marked wrong because of factual deficiencies, they are marked wrong because what was being taught, the real common core if you will, was the process to get to the answer. If the process isn't used the student did not learn the lesson as assigned and taught. Therefore the question is wrong even though the factual answer presented was correct. In some of the examples shown, the student not only didn't learn the process but got the answer wrong as a result. It is immaterial that the student can use another process and generate the correct factual answer. The answer isn't being taught, the process is.

So why should our children be taught to follow the process (rules)? Surely no parent really needs to ask this? Yet rather than teaching them to work within the system, parents consistently teach that results matter more than following the rules. If you can get the right result with no consequences and put forth less effort, then all is good. We teach it by example every day. Yes our children should follow the rules, but that speed limit rule is just as inconvenient as using the new math process, so it is OK to ignore it. As long as we don't get caught and the outcome is right. And if we are caught, we complain that the rule is stupid and should be done away with, not that know we didn't follow it. In the case of common core, our kids don't have to complain that the process is stupid, their parents are doing it for them.

Now that I've expanded on what was beat into me when I was younger, let me say that teaching to the lowest standard attainable by most is plain stupidity. It's not really no child left behind, it is everyone else stop and wait. Common Core has some serious flaws. Predominantly in the areas of what is considered acceptable learning levels and the fact that it is a one size fits all program, rather than an individually measured and challenged learning environment. But, are people really willing to pay for enough teachers to teach children on an individual basis? Are they willing to put in the time and work at home that is required to help their children reach their maximum potential? And most importantly are they willing to teach their children at home that following the rules is required or there are consequences? If the education process is left up to the school to cover all this and much more, because the parents feel it is not their responsibility to do so, then Common Core is what you wind up with. Yes they may learn the factual answers, but more importantly they are taught to follow a system of complicated rules and how to apply those rules to get an acceptable answer. Face it, kids in school can't follow simple rules like dress codes, do their parents care? Does a concerned and involved parent really not have the time nor the ability to monitor what their child wears to school?

Everybody has time to complain about the solutions the "system" tries to implement to fix problems, but nobody seems to have the time to fix the problems before they become the "system's" problems.

[SnoC653]

Homeschool is the way to go... You can teach your kids the way you wish... :) It is highly organized and there are several curriculum providers to choose from, one of my close friends creates/publishes/sells U.S. HISTORY home school curriculum...

There are MANY tight knit homeschool groups where the parents take turns teaching certain subjects based on their vocation/profession/degrees/interest...

There are also MANY homeschool oriented athletic/sports/social events...

You do realize that even the homeschool curriculums will need to be adjusted to cover the common core processes? Home schooled children still have to pass state mandated assessment testing, which is being revised in most states to cover the common core curriculum.

I do agree that home schooling has many advantages if the parents are willing to put in the time and effort to do the job right. Unfortunately, most people won't put forth the effort or lack the skills required to do the job right. And many home schooled children lack in social skill sets due to their isolation from their pier groups.

Most of us remember the trouble we got into and the good times we had with other kids we went to school with. Kids need time to grow and be kids without constant parental control (not to be confused with parental awareness and guidance). Integration is a critical part of the social school life and most home schooled children lack in this area.

[MrDenton]

Thanks for even further enlightenment Snoc. Anyone else see the hypocrisy in the logic behind common core? They want to teach our kids to follow the rules when the very same people that are pushing this are the #1 rule breakers.
Almost sounds like they're producing a bunch of mindless sheep that will follow the rules all the way to slaughter. Because the end result isn't important, what's important is you were a good quiet little sheep.


Oath Keeper

[Paul65K]

There is more to it than what has been discussed. But, there is sufficient grounds for some to be concerned. I'll go into my view at the end of this post.



Bruce the method you described was called new math back in the 60's. Remember your parents ranting about it when they tried to help you with your homework?



Is it really? While I'm not a fan of Common Core, the problem as I see it is most people don't understand what it really is. Let me start by saying while I have no kids in school (except grandkids) and my wife is a special needs pre-school teacher; I feel your pain. Correction: I felt your pain. As I mentioned above in the 60's it was new math. I would get problems marked wrong on a consistent basis for not showing my work. The answers were all right, but without showing the process the work was marked wrong. And the same is happening here. The answer is a fact. The questions aren't marked wrong because of factual deficiencies, they are marked wrong because what was being taught, the real common core if you will, was the process to get to the answer. If the process isn't used the student did not learn the lesson as assigned and taught. Therefore the question is wrong even though the factual answer presented was correct. In some of the examples shown, the student not only didn't learn the process but got the answer wrong as a result. It is immaterial that the student can use another process and generate the correct factual answer. The answer isn't being taught, the process is.

So why should our children be taught to follow the process (rules)? Surely no parent really needs to ask this? Yet rather than teaching them to work within the system, parents consistently teach that results matter more than following the rules. If you can get the right result with no consequences and put forth less effort, then all is good. We teach it by example every day. Yes our children should follow the rules, but that speed limit rule is just as inconvenient as using the new math process, so it is OK to ignore it. As long as we don't get caught and the outcome is right. And if we are caught, we complain that the rule is stupid and should be done away with, not that know we didn't follow it. In the case of common core, our kids don't have to complain that the process is stupid, their parents are doing it for them.

Now that I've expanded on what was beat into me when I was younger, let me say that teaching to the lowest standard attainable by most is plain stupidity. It's not really no child left behind, it is everyone else stop and wait. Common Core has some serious flaws. Predominantly in the areas of what is considered acceptable learning levels and the fact that it is a one size fits all program, rather than an individually measured and challenged learning environment. But, are people really willing to pay for enough teachers to teach children on an individual basis? Are they willing to put in the time and work at home that is required to help their children reach their maximum potential? And most importantly are they willing to teach their children at home that following the rules is required or there are consequences? If the education process is left up to the school to cover all this and much more, because the parents feel it is not their responsibility to do so, then Common Core is what you wind up with. Yes they may learn the factual answers, but more importantly they are taught to follow a system of complicated rules and how to apply those rules to get an acceptable answer. Face it, kids in school can't follow simple rules like dress codes, do their parents care? Does a concerned and involved parent really not have the time nor the ability to monitor what their child wears to school?

Everybody has time to complain about the solutions the "system" tries to implement to fix problems, but nobody seems to have the time to fix the problems before they become the "system's" problems.
YES IT IS ACTUALLY!!!!

While I don't take exception with teaching alternate ways to learn ANY subject I have a huge problem with only one way to teach or do anything. The whole process creates a group of followers IMO and not leaders and thinkers who are taught trained that there is more than one road to any destination. This is the point for me and I HAVE taken the time to understand this subject....thank you very much.

[2manymustangs]

You do realize that even the homeschool curriculums will need to be adjusted to cover the common core processes? Home schooled children still have to pass state mandated assessment testing, which is being revised in most states to cover the common core curriculum.

I do agree that home schooling has many advantages if the parents are willing to put in the time and effort to do the job right. Unfortunately, most people won't put forth the effort or lack the skills required to do the job right. And many home schooled children lack in social skill sets due to their isolation from their pier groups.

Most of us remember the trouble we got into and the good times we had with other kids we went to school with. Kids need time to grow and be kids without constant parental control (not to be confused with parental awareness and guidance). Integration is a critical part of the social school life and most home schooled children lack in this area.

I would assert that the SUBSET of MALADJUSTED home school kids is far far far far far smaller than you think AND far far far far far far smaller than the droopie draws/dropout/nyne packin/chronic weed smokin kids in public schools...

It's up to the parents to ensure that home school kids have proper interaction with other kids through group studies/sports/social events/field trips/EXTRA CURRICULAR activities, league sports, YMCA activities, karate class... IF a parent doesn't grant all of this to their home school kids they are doing them a DISservice...

I think that you are discounting the highly organized state and level of commitment of these parents... I know many and have grown up with them and their kids over the last 25-30 years... 99% of the homeschool kids I know are amazing young people that are LIGHTYEARS ahead of most public school kids AND even most of the private school kids that I know...

We have been involved with my kids private christian school very closely for about 25 years now and I would choose home school over this school given the opportunity...

Keep in mind that not all kids learn the same and are cut out for cookie cutter teaching methods / schools...


I'm not telling you anything you dont know, I think I know you well enough :)


My personal experience and outlook would be to move to a modern version of the one room school house, I was scoffed 10-15 years ago when I pitched this idea at my relatives that are teachers and have bought in HOOK LINE AND SINKER to the teachers union way AND to the Common Core way of thinking...

[Eli]

YES IT IS ACTUALLY!!!!

While I don't take exception with teaching alternate ways to learn ANY subject I have a huge problem with only one way to teach or do anything. The whole process creates a group of followers IMO and not leaders and thinkers who are taught trained that there is more than one road to any destination. This is the point for me and I HAVE taken the time to understand this subject....thank you very much.

I agree with you. We should calendar this one as well, I think we are at 3 for the year.

This reminds me of law school where my "legal writing" professors grilled me. Three semesters of a different teacher trying to force me into their box of how to write. It tormented me. I got very good grades on my written exams and I stuck with my own writing style. Obviously, I wasn't an idiot. It took me years to feel confident about my writing again. All because they wanted me to emulate them and not use my own skills.

This forcing people to do math one way, or anything for that matter is terrible for a child's self esteem and detrimental to their ability to become independent of the "group" and venture out. As we all know, a majority of the most brilliant people in history stepped out of the box and were innovative thinkers. Imagine what would've happened if Jobs and Gates were following the path they were told was right. Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, for example. These people failed over and over again until their accomplishments surpassed anyone's "expectations". The path of least resistance and most acceptance isn't always what's best, it's just what's easiest.

Ok I'll jump off my soap box now.


Sent from my Bat Cave

[SnoC653]

Thanks for even further enlightenment Snoc. Anyone else see the hypocrisy in the logic behind common core? They want to teach our kids to follow the rules when the very same people that are pushing this are the #1 rule breakers.
Almost sounds like they're producing a bunch of mindless sheep that will follow the rules all the way to slaughter. Because the end result isn't important, what's important is you were a good quiet little sheep.


Oath Keeper

Are the parents of these kids any better at following the rules? Do they even care if their kids follow the rules? Unfortunately most don't, all they care about is that they don't want to deal with it. That is why they send their kids to school, so someone else can teach them and do all the work. Most of the teachers I know don't like CC any more that the rest of us, but they do follow the rules to the best of their abilities, so they are teaching it. And you are only seeing one half of the problem. Any idea how much additional paperwork and documentation requirements go along with CC? I've seen teachers working well into the night trying to accomplish all the new mandated administrative BS that goes with the program. Don't tell me the teachers teaching it are the rule breakers, they are just stuck with it like the rest of us. And the people that passed this mess, like usual, are not effected by it one bit, because they don't actually have to teach it or use it. In fact most of the lawmakers that voted for it, have never taught a class in their life, let alone really know what it takes to educate a child.


YES IT IS ACTUALLY!!!!

While I don't take exception with teaching alternate ways to learn ANY subject I have a huge problem with only one way to teach or do anything. The whole process creates a group of followers IMO and not leaders and thinkers who are taught trained that there is more than one road to any destination. This is the point for me and I HAVE taken the time to understand this subject....thank you very much.

So teach the alternate ways at home. That's great. But by your definition, why should i have to memorize dates in History class, I've learned that I can get the same answer by using my smart phone and using Google. Why should you have to learn any process, when you can get the answer by asking someone else?

And as I stated before, the answers are not what is being taught. The process used to get that answer is being taught. Are you saying that because little Jimmy can't learn the process being taught, we should let him do something else? And is the problem really that Jimmy can't get it? Or is the problem that his parents don't get it, so they tell him it's stupid and he doesn't need to learn it? Common Core is intended to teach it at the lowest level. Once a child has learned it in the most basic form, they can learn short cuts and other methods to expedite the process. Just like learning to drive a car, remember all the steps we had to go through when we took drivers ed? Do you expect me to believe you hit every step, every time you get in the car to drive? Or were we taught at the basic level and as we gained experience and proficiency we were allowed to focus more on results rather than process?

The math being discussed is about a process. The problem with CC isn't about them using a different process. The problem is all the little extras snuck into the program. And I haven't seen anyone mention any of those little jewels.

[The Doctor]

The other day I was researching a topic and I typed in the words "What's wrong" and before I completed my typing What's wrong with common core came up with thousands of hits. This is simply an untested and unproven method of teaching. The fact that cursive is eliminated will negate future adults from reading historical documents which are nearly all written in cursive. This is but one of the myriad of things wrong with common core.

http://www.app.com/story/opinion/2014/08/31/common-core/14822945/

[MrDenton]

I never called a teacher a rule breaker. They're just good quiet little sheep too. The elected officials that are forcing this shit down our throats is who I was referring to.
I got to great lengths to teach my son rules and discipline. He is also being taught to think for himself. Believe nothing you hear and only half if what you see or read.
My wife is a stay at home mom, she's been his home tutor for his entire life. Her biggest beef with CC is the inability to help him with this. There are NO sample pages, NO written method to read, NO explanation of how to do the work. It's like it's a big secret that the parents aren't allowed in on. Luckily my wife is smarter than the average bear and she's figured it out.
Home schooling to me isn't something is want for Dylan. We have a few kids across the street that home school. They do a lot of social activities but I've noticed they don't take direction well from other adults. I think it's because mom is the only one that's ever taught them anything.
For us as parents, we'd like to be included in the process rather than blindly sending our kids off to be taught/brainwashed the new way if doing things.
As for not being a good parent because I'd pawn him off on the schools to be taught by someone else? Pretty ignorant statement. Can't even reply to that without wanting to throat punch someone.


Oath Keeper

[SnoC653]

I would assert that the SUBSET of MALADJUSTED home school kids is far far far far far smaller than you think AND far far far far far far smaller than the droopie draws/dropout/nyne packin/chronic weed smokin kids in public schools...

It's up to the parents to ensure that home school kids have proper interaction with other kids through group studies/sports/social events/field trips/EXTRA CURRICULAR activities, league sports, YMCA activities, karate class... IF a parent doesn't grant all of this to their home school kids they are doing them a DISservice...

I think that you are discounting the highly organized state and level of commitment of these parents... I know many and have grown up with them and their kids over the last 25-30 years... 99% of the homeschool kids I know are amazing young people that are LIGHTYEARS ahead of most public school kids AND even most of the private school kids that I know...

We have been involved with my kids private christian school very closely for about 25 years now and I would choose home school over this school given the opportunity...

Keep in mind that not all kids learn the same and are cut out for cookie cutter teaching methods / schools...


I'm not telling you anything you dont know, I think I know you well enough :)


My personal experience and outlook would be to move to a modern version of the one room school house, I was scoffed 10-15 years ago when I pitched this idea at my relatives that are teachers and have bought in HOOK LINE AND SINKER to the teachers union way AND to the Common Core way of thinking... Yes you know me better than to think I'm not in favor of home schooling and there is a reason most of the kids who's parents lack parenting skills, send their kids to public school. IMHO those parents that are too lazy or maladjusted to learn proper parenting skills are also far too lazy to put out any semblance of the effort required to home school their children. And while I don't like the idea of one teacher trying to teach all the grades K-12 at the same time in the same room, I like your concept of forcing the teacher to know the students and their individual learning needs and then meeting those needs at various learning levels.


I agree with you. We should calendar this one as well, I think we are at 3 for the year.

This reminds me of law school where my "legal writing" professors grilled me. Three semesters of a different teacher trying to force me into their box of how to write. It tormented me. I got very good grades on my written exams and I stuck with my own writing style. Obviously, I wasn't an idiot. It took me years to feel confident about my writing again. All because they wanted me to emulate them and not use my own skills.

This forcing people to do math one way, or anything for that matter is terrible for a child's self esteem and detrimental to their ability to become independent of the "group" and venture out. As we all know, a majority of the most brilliant people in history stepped out of the box and were innovative thinkers. Imagine what would've happened if Jobs and Gates were following the path they were told was right. Edison, Ford, Wright brothers, for example. These people failed over and over again until their accomplishments surpassed anyone's "expectations". The path of least resistance and most acceptance isn't always what's best, it's just what's easiest.

Ok I'll jump off my soap box now.


Sent from my Bat Cave

Eli, when you went to law school you had already mastered the skill of writing. And there is a huge difference between a professor trying to get you to write in a style that is convenient for them v.s. teaching the fundamental structuring required to make a sentence, paragraph, or even paper. As I stated above, once the basics are mastered, then by all means expand and teach alternate methods. But, in the case of 4th grade math, the problem is the kids are being taught a process that will give them the basic skills. The parents don't know the method being used and have taught or are teaching the children using a different method (or the child has learned the old method in school and is being transitioned to the new method). Once they have learned how to do the problem correctly, who cares which method they use out in the real world. But, clearly there is a problem when they can't even make change at McDonald's without the register telling them how much to give back. The problem is also with the parents telling the kids that the method being taught is wrong and therefore unimportant, when the method does work but isn't the method the parent learned by.

IMHO the biggest problem isn't what method is dictated to be used, but rather the fact that Government is dictating what information is relevant to be taught in the first place. Then look at how CC controls what is taught through controlling budget and educator pay. The Federal Gov't has no place in a school other than as the Subject of a class in order for kids to understand how it works.

[SnoC653]

I never called a teacher a rule breaker. They're just good quiet little sheep too. The elected officials that are forcing this shit down our throats is who I was referring to.
I got to great lengths to teach my son rules and discipline. He is also being taught to think for himself. Believe nothing you hear and only half if what you see or read.
My wife is a stay at home mom, she's been his home tutor for his entire life. Her biggest beef with CC is the inability to help him with this. There are NO sample pages, NO written method to read, NO explanation of how to do the work. It's like it's a big secret that the parents aren't allowed in on. Luckily my wife is smarter than the average bear and she's figured it out.
Home schooling to me isn't something is want for Dylan. We have a few kids across the street that home school. They do a lot of social activities but I've noticed they don't take direction well from other adults. I think it's because mom is the only one that's ever taught them anything.
For us as parents, we'd like to be included in the process rather than blindly sending our kids off to be taught/brainwashed the new way if doing things.
As for not being a good parent because I'd pawn him off on the schools to be taught by someone else? Pretty ignorant statement. Can't even reply to that without wanting to throat punch someone.


Oath Keeper

I love a good debate, while I accept that you didn't call the teachers the rule breakers, please note I did not call every parent that sends their children to public school a bad parent. I simply stated that the bad parents do tend to send their kids to public schools for the posted reasons.

Yes the lack of a push package to give to parents to explain how to help their children with the new methods is one of the down falls. If it is standardized teaching, surely they could have materials that explain the method to refer the parent to, or to simply give the parents. The text books being used also do not yet reflect the teaching method being directed by CC. So parents have no way to help really. And the new teacher documentation requirements don't leave the teachers with sufficient time to draft up their own parental aids to give out.

I agree with your probable cause and effect with your neighbor's children and their lack of acceptance of guidance or rules from outside sources. If they are involved in outside activities, hopefully they will outgrow those difficulties. Sometimes home schooling just develops social skills at different time intervals than public school taught kids.

[admin2]

You guys are ALL right and this is EXACTLY why we don't have political discussions here on HB. Both sides are very solid in their positions and neither is at all swayed by the others arguments regardless of how well they are articulated. Every other forum that becomes political we've seen on the internet eventually becomes a place for name calling as people become polarized in their positions and eventually resort to personal attacks, which fortunately hasn't happened here and it is very much appreciated.

I would ask that everyone please keep it civil here and we can continue to have different types of interesting subject matter with differing opinions - The alternative is to only talk about boating and we sure wouldn't want THAT on a boating forum :D

[314joey]

I'm just glad my kids are grown, how hard is it to raise a child now, good luck to any who are.............................I pray for my grandkids every night.

[HolyMoly]

I always have to laugh at the people that like to ignorantly say that home schooled kids aren't socialized. The public schools push that propaganda because they LOSE MONEY when kids are home schooled. It's not about socialization, it is about money.

I always like to respond with this question: What is the socialization curriculum at public school? Oh...there isn't one? How is that? It just happens randomly while they sit next to someone in a class room or on the play ground? Dumbest crap ever spewed by fairly intelligent people. Socialization reflects the parents.

Give me an example of a home schooled kid with socialization issues, and I can give you an unlimited # of kids in public school with socialization issues.

In my experience, home schooled kids are some of the most articulate and respectful kids I have ever met.

[2manymustangs]

I'm just glad my kids are grown, how hard is it to raise a child now, good luck to any who are.............................I pray for my grandkids every night.

:action-smiley-035:



I always have to laugh at the people that like to ignorantly say that home schooled kids aren't socialized. The public schools push that propaganda because they LOSE MONEY when kids are home schooled. It's not about socialization, it is about money.

I always like to respond with this question: What is the socialization curriculum at public school? Oh...there isn't one? How is that? It just happens randomly while they sit next to someone in a class room or on the play ground? Dumbest crap ever spewed by fairly intelligent people. Socialization reflects the parents.

Give me an example of a home schooled kid with socialization issues, and I can give you an unlimited # of kids in public school with socialization issues.

In my experience, home schooled kids are some of the most articulate and respectful kids I have ever met.

x 1000 I nominate HoleMole' for ADMIN, wait, nevermind... :D

47092

[HolyMoly]

Also, home schoolers will only have to adjust their curriculum if it is part of a public charter AND if it does not meet the minimum requirements. We aren't adjusting anything for common core. Common core is a minimum standard. The confusion is understanding what meets that standard, so many schools just adopt the common core standards.

And as far as the math, my kids learned math with a program called Math-U-See, which has some similarities to what is in common core. I watched what my kids did, and I thought "That's cheating!" LOL. Believe it or not, they do make improvements in teaching some of this stuff. Some of us learned some old school stuff, and walked up hill to school, both ways, in the snow, and without shoes. And we were grateful!!! LOL

[314joey]

Isn't this the socialized school system at work.................I'm just a simple man, but the way I see it there's not much discipline in schools anymore.

[MrDenton]

You guys are ALL right and this is EXACTLY why we don't have political discussions here on HB. Both sides are very solid in their positions and neither is at all swayed by the others arguments regardless of how well they are articulated. Every other forum that becomes political we've seen on the internet eventually becomes a place for name calling as people become polarized in their positions and eventually resort to personal attacks, which fortunately hasn't happened here and it is very much appreciated.

I would ask that everyone please keep it civil here and we can continue to have different types of interesting subject matter with differing opinions - The alternative is to only talk about boating and we sure wouldn't want THAT on a boating forum :D

I apologize if this is political. My reason for this was to try and get some insight from other parents or actual teachers. I like to think we're good parents. If I wasn't I wouldn't be here stressing over this, but I am and I'm concerned. Raising kids nowadays is tough enough with all the drugs, gangs, crappy foreseeable future...all I want is for our kids to succeed. Anytime there's a unexplained curriculum change, I feel the parents that give a crap should be included. If not for a 2nd string teachers aid, but just to feel like we're in the loop.
Snoc has brought up some very valid points and has enlightened me more than my sons teachers or our friends that ARE actual teachers and I thank him for that.
So I guess this is probably not the place to bring up the fact that my nephew is in 7th grade. He's had lessons in school teaching that Muslims are a peace loving group and Islam is a religion of love and peace. My nephew got in trouble for bringing the word God into the conversation. Is this part of the common core curriculum?


Oath Keeper

[2manymustangs]

:popcorn:

[SnoC653]

I always have to laugh at the people that like to ignorantly say that home schooled kids aren't socialized. The public schools push that propaganda because they LOSE MONEY when kids are home schooled. It's not about socialization, it is about money.

I always like to respond with this question: What is the socialization curriculum at public school? Oh...there isn't one? How is that? It just happens randomly while they sit next to someone in a class room or on the play ground? Dumbest crap ever spewed by fairly intelligent people. Socialization reflects the parents.

Give me an example of a home schooled kid with socialization issues, and I can give you an unlimited # of kids in public school with socialization issues.

In my experience, home schooled kids are some of the most articulate and respectful kids I have ever met.

Since my Bachelor's is in Psychology and I have worked a lot with high school students as both a substitute teacher and as a military recruiter who got to see their test scores as well interact with them in both group and one on one situations, I understand you don't mean me when you use the expression "ignorantly say". So since I have no allegiance to any school district and know and help several people who do home school their children, it's not propaganda to me, it's factual experience. There are more special need preschool children than the school district wants to enroll in the district where my wife teaches, so I can assure you she wouldn't mind some of her parents doing some teaching at home. But, the lack there of is why a large number of her students are her students. One example would be a non-potty trained 50+ pound four year old, and yes she has had them before. Is it really the school's responsibility to teach this subject? And from your comment about socialization, I'm sure your teachers in school never taught you how to stand in line and wait your turn? How to not talk when someone else was talking? How just because you see something that you want, it doesn't mean you can just grab it or take it or throw a tantrum until you get it? You didn't learn about privacy and the sometimes lack there of in public places? Cultural diversity and how everyone has their own special things they have to offer as individuals that we might not have? The list is large and almost endless when it comes to socialization skills that kids learn in public schools. Some are specifically taught, while others are more managed rather than taught. Cultural diversity exposure happens, teachers can give one view of it, but primarily it opens the door to conversations with parents when the kids get home. If they aren't exposed to it, they won't know what to ask about it. So public schools (private schools included) facilitate socialization skills even when they don't teach them specifically.


Also, home schoolers will only have to adjust their curriculum if it is part of a public charter AND if it does not meet the minimum requirements. We aren't adjusting anything for common core. Common core is a minimum standard. The confusion is understanding what meets that standard, so many schools just adopt the common core standards.

And as far as the math, my kids learned math with a program called Math-U-See, which has some similarities to what is in common core. I watched what my kids did, and I thought "That's cheating!" LOL. Believe it or not, they do make improvements in teaching some of this stuff. Some of us learned some old school stuff, and walked up hill to school, both ways, in the snow, and without shoes. And we were grateful!!! LOL

I'm glad that is how it works in your state, in ours they have a curriculum produced by the state. They can teach it how they wish, but the entire curriculum is tested for compliance. And when stuff like social oppression and religious intolerance is added to the CC to be taught, how do you get around it? There are many different ways to teach any subject and no two people learn exactly the same. This is one of the fallacies of CC. It expects everyone to learn the same way. 2MM's concept of the teacher teaching all the students in the same room with tailored teaching to the student's level is a more realistic way to reach more students and do a better job teaching. But it takes more teachers in general and more teachers that care about teaching specifically. And finally it wasn't up hill both ways when I was a kid, but man was that snow deep ;)




Isn't this the socialized school system at work.................I'm just a simple man, but the way I see it there's not much discipline in schools anymore.
Why isn't it bad parenting at work? The kids don't wait till they get to school to change into that outfit. He sluffed out the door at home dressed like that. Schools are limited as to how much discipline they can enforce. When they have to worry about being sued every time they try to enforce rules, what do you expect the schools to do? And with the government adding to the problems by telling the schools what they can and can't regulate as far as dress codes and who can use which restrooms and facilities is it any wonder why schools have problems? Again, my position is gov't should stay out of the schools.


I apologize if this is political. My reason for this was to try and get some insight from other parents or actual teachers. I like to think we're good parents. If I wasn't I wouldn't be here stressing over this, but I am and I'm concerned. Raising kids nowadays is tough enough with all the drugs, gangs, crappy foreseeable future...all I want is for our kids to succeed. Anytime there's a unexplained curriculum change, I feel the parents that give a crap should be included. If not for a 2nd string teachers aid, but just to feel like we're in the loop.
Snoc has brought up some very valid points and has enlightened me more than my sons teachers or our friends that ARE actual teachers and I thank him for that.
So I guess this is probably not the place to bring up the fact that my nephew is in 7th grade. He's had lessons in school teaching that Muslims are a peace loving group and Islam is a religion of love and peace. My nephew got in trouble for bringing the word God into the conversation. Is this part of the common core curriculum?


Oath Keeper

The Muslim issue you pointed out is one of those little things they are slipping in while promoting the bigger CC issue. The concern shouldn't really be about which method they use to teach the kids, but more over what things are they mandating be taught along with the plan on to teach and test the children? CC is hugely popular with most teacher's unions as it provides a minimum standard that must be met. And that is precisely what they want, the minimum amount of work that has to be met to meet their contract. And while the bad teachers strive to reach the minimum and then stop, the good teachers that used to go well above and beyond the minimum will be brought into check with budget and administrative actions contained in the fine print.

The real problem with CC is there is no way to mandate that parents parent and work with their kids and know what is going on with their kids. Yet CC requires interactions with parents from the teachers both in the school and at the student's home (when they are first starting school for sure) interjecting potentially unwanted people into the student's home life. The CC rules will most likely change at regular intervals and will keep the school administrations in chaos. Whether that is the intended purpose or just a side effect of the political nature of CC is not really relevant to this discussion. What is important is that government is out of their lane and is creating a back door into our family values. How CC is taught shouldn't be a huge topic of discussion. What CC requires to be taught should alarm you (IMHO).

[MrDenton]

Well, Dylan came home with an A+ on his math test today. If it wasn't for his mother sitting down and figuring it out with him he would've failed.
From what I just read above I took this away from it. CC is not to help the kids but more to balance the teachers. A great teacher is held back and a bad teacher can maintain the minimum requirements. Sounds like a teachers union thing to not have to do performance evaluations.


Oath Keeper

[SnoC653]

Well, Dylan came home with an A+ on his math test today. If it wasn't for his mother sitting down and figuring it out with him he would've failed.
From what I just read above I took this away from it. CC is not to help the kids but more to balance the teachers. A great teacher is held back and a bad teacher can maintain the minimum requirements. Sounds like a teachers union thing to not have to do performance evaluations.


Oath Keeper

First and foremost, congratulate both of them on a job well done.

The union thing is the something for everyone part of it. The dumbing down of America isn't the goal, but could very easily become the effect. The intent was to give everyone a fair chance at learning by standardizing the way things are taught and establishing a minimum criteria for what constitutes a high school education. By doing this the poor school districts would in theory provide the same opportunity for their students to excel as a rich school district. While in the land of warm and fuzzy this is a great concept, holding some kids back so others can catch up is not even a near miss to an argument for promoting education. Most schools are so overrun with below standard kids that they don't have the resources to work with them and bring them up to the standard while also working with the talented and gifted kids. Guess who loses when there is a minimum which must be achieved? The average student's will be least affected by CC and the lower learners will be helped the most. The high learners will most likely be left to fend for themselves and not reach their maximum potential. Because, nobody is working to make every student the best they can be. Just meet the standard and the job is done. After all, who hangs around work and does extra work for no extra pay after the job is finished?

[gn7]

I do agree that home schooling has many advantages if the parents are willing to put in the time and effort to do the job right. Unfortunately, most people won't put forth the effort or lack the skills required to do the job right. And many home schooled children lack in social skill sets due to their isolation from their pier groups.

Most of us remember the trouble we got into and the good times we had with other kids we went to school with. Kids need time to grow and be kids without constant parental control (not to be confused with parental awareness and guidance). Integration is a critical part of the social school life and most home schooled children lack in this area.
!!
Kids in school go from parental "guidance" as you like to call it, to teacher CONTROL!!!! Conform, or fail.

This filmed back in 1992!!!! Watch it thru at least the first 6 minutes. Watch the whole thing if you can stomach it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd8QyIAfo4w


WARNING: Take a Pepto Bismol before you watch this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-piPkgAUo0w

[SnoC653]

!!
Kids in school go from parental "guidance" as you like to call it, to teacher CONTROL!!!! Conform, or fail.

This filmed back in 1992!!!! Watch it thru at least the first 6 minutes. Watch the whole thing if you can stomach it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd8QyIAfo4w



WARNING: Take a Pepto Bismol before you watch this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-piPkgAUo0w

So after watching all 59 min and 13 seconds of her talk, didn't you find that I hit most of the highlights? But why do you say the parents only get to guide their children while the schools control them? When I was a child my parents had control of me and knew what I was learning and how it was being taught. And as was pointed out on the video some students refuse to conform even then and still do today. So why does the school need to be responsible for controlling the child and what values a child is given? Could it be because the people in charge of making the rules felt there were too many people growing up with screwed up values? Could it be because they knew the parents were too lazy to do the work to instill good values? How can a parent punish a child without creating an inconvenience for themselves? You can't create a punishment without creating the need for a method to enforce said punishment and to validate that the punishment obtained the desired objective. Back when, that was called parenting. But back when, if I got in trouble at school, I was in more trouble when I got home. Now if the student goes home and states they got in trouble at school the parent goes and yells at the school for picking on their little darling. It can't be little darlings fault, so how did you fail him and why are you picking on him since it's the school's fault? Besides even if he was wrong, the school can punish him, that way the parent doesn't have to change their plans or give up their time to fix the behavior.

And yes I realize that isn't the case for most of the people on here, but as was pointed out in the video the people that are complaining about common core (goal or whatever other name you want to give it) are those whose children are above average and will most likely lose educational opportunity under the new system. Most people willing to enter a discussion about education at all, are above the average line already.

And how do we fix these problems? Keep the gov't out of education. Because as was pointed out, regardless if the person making the standard is Mother Theresa or Adolph Hitler, they have no business deciding what the standard should be for all the children's values.