Baddest pump gas NA small block?

[Uncle Dave]

Curious who out there is running Na pump gas small blocks? - you know the regular guy stuff.

Anybody can make big blocks, blower, nitrous, race gas engines haul A.

Who'se got what, and what you are running for speed and what are your combos?

Heres my 91 Lavey Sebring tunnel. I get about 90 with a few people and near full fuel in it.
Its a blast to drive and can sustain top speed till the tanks run dry.

I'm curious to see if anyone is actually running 100 on a pump gas small block.


Uncle Dave

[Paul65K]

Curious who out there is running Na pump gas small blocks? - you know the regular guy stuff.

Anybody can make big blocks, blower, nitrous, race gas engines haul A.

Who'se got what, and what you are running for speed and what are your combos?

Heres my 91 Lavey Sebring tunnel. I get about 90 with a few people and near full fuel in it.
Its a blast to drive and can sustain top speed till the tanks run dry.

I'm curious to see if anyone is actually running 100 on a pump gas small block.


Uncle DaveDo outboards count :D

[Uncle Dave]

I love whackers too!

Not the same thing.

That said - Your rig looks pretty nice.

DO tell a bit!

UD

[Paul65K]

I love whackers too!

Not the same thing.

That said - Your rig looks pretty nice.

DO tell a bit!

UDWell.....just to be clear I don't see 100 with my boat.....82 or so in PERFECT conditions but I'm only running a 3.2L V6 at the enad of the day. The boat is a 92 Schiada River Tunnel with a 300xs hanging on a Stainless Marine bracket (no jackplate). It's a blast to drive actually and very, very stable!!

Here's a short video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86sFQc0Ev5U&list=FLli6DLg_WqjW1-yV4EPZ1TQ

[Uncle Dave]

Well.....just to be clear I don't see 100 with my boat.....82 or so in PERFECT conditions but I'm only running a 3.2L V6 at the enad of the day. The boat is a 92 Schiada River Tunnel with a 300xs hanging on a Stainless Marine bracket (no jackplate). It's a blast to drive actually and very, very stable!!

Here's a short video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86sFQc0Ev5U&list=FLli6DLg_WqjW1-yV4EPZ1TQ

Thats hauling coal- is that 82 with people on board or just you?

UD

[2manymustangs]

:popcorn:


I like this build but the way they set it up , it is done by 6k RPM. Changing the bump stick to a stout solid roller would change the numbers dramatically... It would also benefit from better heads but I think the build describes what they were really after...

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/tech-stories/engine/project-428-pony-jet-squeezing-high-revs-street-windsor/

[Sharp shooter]

Curious who out there is running Na pump gas small blocks? - you know the regular guy stuff.

Anybody can make big blocks, blower, nitrous, race gas engines haul A.

Who'se got what, and what you are running for speed and what are your combos?

Heres my 91 Lavey Sebring tunnel. I get about 90 with a few people and near full fuel in it.
Its a blast to drive and can sustain top speed till the tanks run dry.

I'm curious to see if anyone is actually running 100 on a pump gas small block.


Uncle Dave

That's impressive Uncle Dave. So what kind of regular guy parts are in that thing? Tell us all what heads and camshaft you're running and what king of RPM you spin to achieve that 89. :thumbsUp:

I have a friend with a pretty strong, but not too crazy small block in a CVX-20.

Compared to the tunnel wackers, none of this compares really. :bangmyhead:

[Uncle Dave]

Its quite similar in characteristics to what Mustang posted. Its really pretty mild.

Starts at about 2500 and is all over with at 6K.


400 GM iron block I had side bolted punched out a bit to clean it. Generic Steel crank, regular 5.7 rods
forged Ross Pistons with zero gap secondary rings
Brodix track 1 heads -2.08's, some hand porting (would be better to put it on a cnc machine)
edelbrock single plane manifold (would probably run better with an air gap)
demon 750/850 carb
msd ignition
engel custom hydraulic roller, with shortened overlap. (Ill dig up specs)
Imco powerflow manifolds

Dick Gazan picked and put the combo together. The guy on the right of the freedom machine. Cool old guy died a while ago it was a pleasure to know him. Alexi from boostpower tuned it and pulled the secondary water pump off and put a crossover in for me.

I built the long block for 7500 bucks spend a few grand on the exhaust oil coolers valve covers etc..to keep it happy and alive- then beat it mercilessly from 98 to 2010 then refreshed it and tuned it back up.

Dick called it a 500/500 motor - Makes just under 500 hp/ and just over 500 lb ft with a curve as flat as kansas.

I could be really cool If I pulled it all apart and made everything shiny and polished.

I spent money one the steering- Its got an ITS and full hydraulic - turns like a slot car.


Uncle Dave

[Uncle Dave]

Paul 65-

I'm curious about your stoker- is the floor flat or does it follow the outline of the hull?
Pretty sure I've seen stokers done both ways.

UD

[Paul65K]

Thats hauling coal- is that 82 with people on board or just you?

UD
The only time I saw 82 I was alone but had full fuel......~85 degrees and no wind!!

[Paul65K]

Paul 65-

I'm curious about your stoker- is the floor flat or does it follow the outline of the hull?
Pretty sure I've seen stokers done both ways.

UDMy Schiada is the 21' and the floor follows the outline of the hull......looks exactly like the standard 21RC on the inside and has a ski locker in the middle.

The also make a 20' RT but the floor on that one is up and down with the tunnels there's just not enough room on the smaller boat for the full floor!!

[Uncle Dave]

My Schiada is the 21' and the floor follows the outline of the hull......looks exactly like the standard 21RC on the inside and has a ski locker in the middle.

The also make a 20' RT but the floor on that one is up and down with the tunnels there's just not enough room on the smaller boat for the full floor!!

Sorry about the Schiada/ stoker mixup,

I have friends with Stokers/ Bakers and simply mixed the brand name.

I'm not clear about your answer you say it follows the floor but has a locker. Im having a hard time visualizing it.


UD

[Paul65K]

Sorry about the Schiada/ stoker mixup,

I have friends with Stokers/ Bakers and simply mixed the brand name.

I'm not clear about your answer you say it follows the floor but has a locker. Im having a hard time visualizing it.


UD
Well....it follows the floor to a flat area in the middle....so basically a flat floor with ski locker in the middle unlike the smaller boat which has the tunnels higher than the floor.

The boat is actually a ModVP and not a true tunnel.

No problem with the Schiada Stoker thing.........the Schiada is WAY heavier and so not as fast, but this boat was designed for the ocean and the Long Beach to Catalina ski race specifically so there is a trade off between speed and structure. :thumb:

[Uncle Dave]

Well....it follows the floor to a flat area in the middle....so basically a flat floor with ski locker in the middle unlike the smaller boat which has the tunnels higher than the floor.

The boat is actually a ModVP and not a true tunnel.

No problem with the Schiada Stoker thing.........the Schiada is WAY heavier and so not as fast, but this boat was designed for the ocean and the Long Beach to Catalina ski race specifically so there is a trade off between speed and structure. :thumb:

Ive never ridden in the Schiada RT but the layup you describe is typical of the brand.

My Sebring is a mod VP as well.

My good buddy Bob had a Baker that went to his kid when he upgraded from it to a lavey 20.2.
The 20.2 feels about like the Stoker. Heavier than the Baker but lighter then Schiada.

Here is Bob and Bobby (the Bobs) out together.
That baker was so thin you could feel the water thumping your feet as the hull flexed- it pretty much wore itself out.

UD

[Paul65K]

That shot of the Lavey in the air is Bad Ass :thumb:

[Sharp shooter]

That shot of the Lavey in the air is Bad Ass :thumb:

X2!!

Dave, that's a great combination of parts. Well thought out and tuned right= success. Do you have any video idling at the dock (or trailered) I would love to hear it.

[Uncle Dave]

Thanks I went through a bunch of combos before settling on this.

Yes I have a video of it on the hose at boostpower somewhere Ill dig up.

Pretty docile, but lumpy enough idles at 850 out of gear and about 600 in gear so not to much bravo "crunch"

Its also pretty quiet with the exhaust underwater at idle.
You can hear us bit-chin about a used part we drove across town to buy that was a basket case while we idle out.

3 dudes 2 chicks- bad ratio - lot of beef on board.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiYbs97NSyI

Heres a clip from the back with a water proof go pro while we were picking props and tweaking the setup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfbNkf2FPk0

Your avatar is a jet ski but dont you have a completely wicked blown alcohol flatty or something like that?

UD

[Sharp shooter]

Thanks I went through a bunch of combos before settling on this.

Yes I have a video of it on the hose at boostpower somewhere Ill dig up.

Pretty docile, but lumpy enough idles at 850 out of gear and about 600 in gear so not to much bravo "crunch"

Its also pretty quiet with the exhaust underwater at idle.
You can hear us bit-chin about a used part we drove across town to buy that was a basket case while we idle out.

3 dudes 2 chicks- bad ratio - lot of beef on board.

Your avatar is a jet ski but dont you have a completely wicked blown alcohol flatty or something like that?

UD

I like it Dave! The boat's not so big that you loose the excitement and yet it will handles fairly rough water and can likely pull your head off in a turn. :D

A really nice overall package. :thumbup:

Yeah, I've got a nearly useless, impractical trailer queen that cost as much as a middle of the road DCB or newer wake boat. :knockout:

[Uncle Dave]

I like it Dave! The boat's not so big that you loose the excitement and yet it will handles fairly rough water and can likely pull your head off in a turn. :D

A really nice overall package. :thumbup:

Yeah, I've got a nearly useless, impractical trailer queen that cost as much as a middle of the road DCB or newer wake boat. :knockout:

Thanks!

I spent 20 years tweaking it with liberal infusions of cash. It works really well in a suitable environment.
The rigs turning is like a slot car, and with well over ten g's into the ITS and juice helm it should.
That same system easily turns my 28ft V.

At the right place and time there is nothing like a wicked big block in an itty bitty boat.

Next time Im at the river you can take it for a spin.

UD

[Uncle Dave]

Here it is on the hose.

UD

http://youtu.be/h93yy3FwuYs

[HB Vic]

Beautiful boat UD, very impressive. Thanks for posting!!

[Sharp shooter]

Here it is on the hose.

UD

http://youtu.be/h93yy3FwuYs

Sounds perfect! Thanks for sharing and thanks for the driving offer. :thumb:

[Uncle Dave]

Cam is Engel GHR-236/242 on 110 lobe centers (vs standard 114)

Its advanced a bit - I think 4 degrees.

Some of the younger builders like Bob Madera and Alexi seem to have even sweeter combos that make even more HP, but I don't know if id get 10 years out of them or what more I would have paid upfront.

Dick was a treasure trove of info but was as hard headed as a mule and rightfully so.

Uncle Dave

[chevellesb406]

Cam is Engel GHR-236/242 on 110 lobe centers (vs standard 114)

Its advanced a bit - I think 4 degrees.

Some of the younger builders like Bob Madera and Alexi seem to have even sweeter combos that make even more HP, but I don't know if id get 10 years out of them or what more I would have paid upfront.

Dick was a treasure trove of info but was as hard headed as a mule and rightfully so.

Uncle Dave

I have a pretty decent piece in my chevelle, car not boat so its a totally different world. True street car though, easy to drive and no need to pull timing or any tricks to get it to go around town. Drive over 50 miles each way to the track at 4k with the gears and am good to go.

Chevy 400 block
splayed (sp) mains and girdle
421 CID
6.2" rods
JE pistons @ 10:1

Heads: World Products sportsman II's 200cc runner, 72cc chamber (all when stock)
now has 2.05" intake and 1.64" exhaust
Bowl work and some other "stuff"

cam: solid roller
lift: 601/625 and then a 1.6 rocker on that
duration: 258/262 @ 50
lobe centers: 108 degress if memory serves me correctly

Hoping to have some dyno numbers in the winter for it finally, getting ready to run True Street in the NMCA for the experience.

[Uncle Dave]

Whats your estimate on what its going to make ?


UD

[2manymustangs]

Whats your estimate on what its going to make ?


UD

I wager the # will be real close to yours except that with the solid roller he may pick up 5-7% on the HP side and the peak HP will be about 750 RPM above yours, he may even make less torque :D my 2 cents...

[gn7]

I wager the # will be real close to yours except that with the solid roller he may pick up 5-7% on the HP side and the peak HP will be about 750 RPM above yours, he may even make less torque :D my 2 cents...

That would be a cool trick. 5-7% more power with only 750 rpm AND less peak torque.

When I get time I will write WHY UD's back is already pretty much up against the wall. Let me just start by saying that Dick Gazan(RIP) was no slouch when it came to spinning wrenches and he was a pump gas guru.

[chevellesb406]

Whats your estimate on what its going to make ?


UD

Guessing HP is a dangerous game where everyone will want to take a shot at you, but I am hoping for something in your neighborhood. It will be on a chassis dyno so we should know both ways. Pretty sure all the results are going to do is make me want some AFR's for it and kick the compression up since the aluminum head will be more forgiving obviously. Either way, if I build anything again, it will be LS based. Too much cool stuff and big numbers with very streetable personalities out there to not make the switch over.

[2manymustangs]

GN7, I will stick with my guess... I'm assuming Uncle Daves CR isnt more than 11:1 if he is getting by on pump premium... Uncle have has a decent spec. hydraulic roller and Chevelle has a nice smallish solid roller...

5% more HP would be 25 +/- and Daves cam/heads/carb set up is done by 5600RPM...

I wager that Chevelles cam/heads are done by maybe 6300RPM +/- 100 RPM for his peak HP... With the same or maybe less torque...

Uncle Daves combo makes 510 TQ at 4400RPM :)

Hope all is well my friend...

NOTE, Chevelle: I don't mean "smallish" in a bad way at all and I would prolly pick something with the same manners if I was going to drop the $$$ for a solid roller...

[ChumpChange]

Good stuff here.

[gn7]

Uncle Daves combo makes 510 TQ at 4400RPM :)
.

More importantly, it carries at or over 500 lbs for 1200 RPM thru the curve.

[Uncle Dave]

More importantly, it carries at or over 500 lbs for 1200 RPM thru the curve.

Dicks mills are just a little less durable than an anvil.

I regret not meeting Dick sooner or I wouldn't have wasted money on building and re-building blown small block variants.
I never could get that shit working right, and when Dick looked at it the first time he started laughing at me.

I wish Id have had him build me a big block, but I can put ridiculous number of guys on the trailer with this setup, and its such a bargain I hate go mess with it further. The boat though can take more speed and still be stable.

This little boat has actually had a lot of press as it was the Laveys flagship Sebring for a few years before they sold it off to me.

Heres a trip down memory lane- check out Bob Nordskogs face while test driving her in 91 performance boat evaluations.




UD

[2manymustangs]

Uncle, you know I think your set up is right on...

I certainly didn't mean to come across like I was trying to give advice or say anything negative about you OR CHevelle's build...

Clearly you have to balance having something with manners, a reliable piece AND squeezing every last pony out of a mill with regard to compression ratio, running a monster solid roller cam AND/OR twin dominators... :)


Lets plan on making a trip to meet ole Joe in the near future... Just for kicks... http://www.joeshermanracing.com/

[Uncle Dave]

Wasn't thinking you were coming across any specific way at all. Just chatting.

I know Sherman builds a nasty award winning small block - but I've never seen one in a boat.

I think Joe is retired and the kid is building them these days.

I talked to both Sherman and Gazan at the same time early on and thought Dick had a better handle on where to go with a boat setup.

UD

[2manymustangs]

:thumb:

[gn7]

Uncle, you know I think your set up is right on...

I certainly didn't mean to come across like I was trying to give advice or say anything negative about you OR CHevelle's build...

Clearly you have to balance having something with manners, a reliable piece AND squeezing every last pony out of a mill with regard to compression ratio, running a monster solid roller cam AND/OR twin dominators... :)


Lets plan on making a trip to meet ole Joe in the near future... Just for kicks... http://www.joeshermanracing.com/

Just when I was thinking UD's best bet was to crate the engine up with $4000 and sent it off to you.

[2manymustangs]

Just when I was thinking UD's best bet was to crate the engine up with $4000 and sent it off to you.

4K? you only want me to put in new bearings, rings and gaskets? :D

You know he is going to want to have his engine back before the next president finishes his first term...

[Uncle Dave]

Next time you come out feel free to bring a sister or sisters friend or something. Waay to much sausage in the rig of late.

Heres the rig in Hotboats 93 calendar - The cloth interior was killer at the river, but lousy on the humid Chicago fox river.

Cant remember the models names (hard to imagine how that could happen)

UD