The Great Life Jacket Debate

[HB Vic]

There have been a few recent boat incidents involving boaters operating their boats without life jackets. Both recreational boaters and racers have lost their lives in boating accidents over the past several months to a year. I have personally witnessed a couple of these accidents and can tell you that in at least two situations life jackets did not help save lives whatsoever. They did however help in the recovery of the deceased. Hang on to that thought.

We've all heard that old saying "all they'll do is help them find your body". In some cases this is true.

Yours truly has been guilty of operating my boat at speeds in excess of 100mph without life jackets. After all, the choice is ours correct? Hang on to that thought as well.

Most States only require children age 13 or under to wear life jackets at all times while the boat is underway. Oddly enough, most adults are aware of this law and have absolutely no problem slapping life jackets on their 13yr old and younger kids. And whats even more bizarre, as soon as that child turns 14 the life jackets come off and we have absolutely no problem telling the LEO "he/she is 14 and no longer needs to wear a jacket". And of course the LEO does the smh deal and lets us go on about our business. So we cruise off thinking we cut a fat hog and usually never think twice about it. Now those of you who require everyone to wear jackets while in your boat, at all times, my hat is off to you.

For the rest of us, what happened to our thought process when we decided it was ok to not require a jacket on our now 14yr old? And why do we think its ok to not wear jackets at all? Even when our boats can travel at some pretty fast speeds?

Given the fact that the boating season is upon us and the fact that good people have lost their lives, has made me rethink my somewhat casual position about not wearing jackets in my boat, no matter what speed we plan on traveling.

My primary business can be pretty dangerous stuff. OSHA has set down some pretty stringent standards and requirements and most of the time none of us have a problem abiding by these regulations. In fact, depending on what we're doing, we welcome the protection. Yet we (I) don't seem to have a problem hopping in our 100+ mph boats and not wearing life jackets. If you really think about it, it doesn't make sense.

I know people who have a no choice, if you're going to ride in my boat, you will wear a life jacket rule. I applaud these people. Sometimes its not easy to "require" your passengers to wear a life jacket. When you make it a "put it on or no ride" rule, you've taken the option out of their hands. And in my opinion you've taken a big precaution to saving their life in the event of a catastrophe.

Now back to my earlier thoughts.

Should wearing a life jacket be a choice?

Do life jackets make it easier for rescue to find the body? If so, is this a bad thing?

I'm not preaching or passing judgment by any means. I'm simply saying that I've rethought this and will now require life jackets in my performance boat. It will no longer be an option.

What are your thoughts?

HB



BoatUS Life Jacket Rules by State

http://www.boatus.org/life-jacket-loaner/staterequirements.asp

[Eli]

I think it's a great idea to require it. I know I've been on a few boat rides and thought "holy shit I wish I was wearing a life jacket right now".


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[Nordic Bear]

Yup,,, I agree totally!!!! Captains rules, ,, if they don't like it, no boating for them. Rule on my boat is,,, No shoes..... unless she insists,,,, then the exception is you can wear the shoes, but thats the ONLY thing yer' wearin'.... :0)....

[Mrs.K034]

There have been a few recent boat incidents involving boaters operating their boats without life jackets. Both recreational boaters and racers have lost their lives in boating accidents over the past several months to a year. I have personally witnessed a couple of these accidents and can tell you that in at least two situations life jackets did not help save lives whatsoever. They did however help in the recovery of the deceased. Hang on to that thought.

We've all heard that old saying "all they'll do is help them find your body". In some cases this is true.

Yours truly has been guilty of operating my boat at speeds in excess of 100mph without life jackets. After all, the choice is ours correct? Hang on to that thought as well.

Most States only require children age 13 or under to wear life jackets at all times while the boat is underway. Oddly enough, most adults are aware of this law and have absolutely no problem slapping life jackets on their 13yr old and younger kids. And whats even more bizarre, as soon as that child turns 14 the life jackets come off and we have absolutely no problem telling the LEO "he/she is 14 and no longer needs to wear a jacket". And of course the LEO does the smh deal and lets us go on about our business. So we cruise off thinking we cut a fat hog and usually never think twice about it. Now those of you who require everyone to wear jackets while in your boat, at all times, my hat is off to you.

For the rest of us, what happened to our thought process when we decided it was ok to not require a jacket on our now 14yr old? And why do we think its ok to not wear jackets at all? Even when our boats can travel at some pretty fast speeds?

Given the fact that the boating season is upon us and the fact that good people have lost their lives, has made me rethink my somewhat casual position about not wearing jackets in my boat, no matter what speed we plan on traveling.

My primary business can be pretty dangerous stuff. OSHA has set down some pretty stringent standards and requirements and most of the time none of us have a problem abiding by these regulations. In fact, depending on what we're doing, we welcome the protection. Yet we (I) don't seem to have a problem hopping in our 100+ mph boats and not wearing life jackets. If you really think about it, it doesn't make sense.

I know people who have a no choice, if you're going to ride in my boat, you will wear a life jacket rule. I applaud these people. Sometimes its not easy to "require" your passengers to wear a life jacket. When you make it a "put it on or no ride" rule, you've taken the option out of their hands. And in my opinion you've taken a big precaution to saving their life in the event of a catastrophe.

Now back to my earlier thoughts.

Should wearing a life jacket be a choice?

Do life jackets make it easier for rescue to find the body? If so, is this a bad thing?

I'm not preaching or passing judgment by any means. I'm simply saying that I've rethought this and will now require life jackets in my performance boat. It will no longer be an option.

What are your thoughts?

HB



BoatUS Life Jacket Rules by State

http://www.boatus.org/life-jacket-loaner/staterequirements.asp

I think we've talked about this before, but I'm 110% with life jackets being worn. I've seen too many people loose too much in the past four or five years,. Including our close family, and it's something that should be mandatory, if you're going over a certain speed.. I also think, that you should have to have a license to drive a boat... That's my opinion.. But, I always have a strong opinion.

[Sharp shooter]

The people I've given rides to have all requested a life jacket so not really an issue for me. :)

[Eli]

I think we've talked about this before, but I'm 110% with life jackets being worn. I've seen too many people loose too much in the past four or five years,. Including our close family, and it's something that should be mandatory, if you're going over a certain speed.. I also think, that you should have to have a license to drive a boat... That's my opinion.. But, I always have a strong opinion.

Having a license to drive a boat is a great idea. It would require people to become familiar with safety rules and keep people from just renting a boat and not having any clue what they are doing.


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[Mrs.K034]

Having a license to drive a boat is a great idea. It would require people to become familiar with safety rules and keep people from just renting a boat and not having any clue what they are doing.


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That is exactly it!!! Boating is really more dangerous than being on asphalt, because your "ground" is always changing and you have to know how to handle it.. If you don't, it could be bad.. Or if you aren't looking over your shoulder all the time.. So many things could turn bad so fast if you don't know the "rules" of driving a boat.

[Eli]

The people I've given rides to have all requested a life jacket so not really an issue for me. :)

How many leave the boat with dry pants?


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[SnoC653]

I think we've talked about this before, but I'm 110% with life jackets being worn. I've seen too many people loose too much in the past four or five years,. Including our close family, and it's something that should be mandatory, if you're going over a certain speed.. I also think, that you should have to have a license to drive a boat... That's my opinion.. But, I always have a strong opinion.

Everybody that gets in my boat is handed a life jacket. If we are floating or putting down the river they need only have them within arms reach. If I go over 30 they need to have them on. I always have my jacket on. But, I don't swim.

That brings me to the license comment. I do not like the idea of licensing boat operators because that allows gov't to start meddling and making rules which they will get carried away with. I can see them saying to drive a boat you have to be able to swim, just because some lawmaker thinks it is a good idea. I can see them putting speed limits on the rivers and lakes, maximum horse power requirements and all kinds of other laws that do nothing but infringe on what we do for recreation. Remember giving you a license is nothing if they don't have a bunch of silly little rules they can take it away for if you don't comply.

HB, yes the jackets make it easier to find the bodies. But, what isn't spoken about is: Were any of those jackets that racers were wearing actually not in compliance with the rules? It really is a touchy subject as looking at it after the fact puts a bad light on some good people who tragically didn't follow the rules to a T. Why is it when a boat crashes (racing or not) and a fatality occurs, you rarely ever hear of a detailed investigation explaining what went wrong and what could be done to prevent the same thing from happening again.

For every safety measure there is a new risk added in some situations. A life jacket can keep you afloat, but if the boat capsizes, it can keep you trapped in the air pocket under the boat and you might not be found in time. Or the boat could sink over you and you might not have the strength to dive under the boat to come up outside of it with your jacket on.

[Sharp shooter]

How many leave the boat with dry pants?


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All. I don't give scary rides. :captain:

[K-034]

All. I don't give scary rides. :captain:

Me neither,

40939

I don't let any one ride with me unless they have a helmet and jacket, unless I'm just cruising then just a jacket

[RogerThat99]

I lost a friend in an accident a couple weeks ago. 3 others lost their life also. None had lifejackets on. I don't think there should be a law to wear lifejackets at all times when underway. I just don't think it should be required in a wakeboard boat, a pontoon boat, etc... If a law is passed, jackets will be required on almost every boat, if not every boat. In my opinion, the Captain should require lifejackets when riding on a fast boat. I can say that Grads always requires jackets on all passengers when underway.

[Menace Marine]

I believe 100% that life jackets should be worn at speed. What speed I don't really know. It blows me away that we still here stories of guys testing boats or props or drives whatever with no jackets on. It is a test. You don't know what the results will be. Anything could go wrong.
That being said I don't believe it should be mandatory. It is a personal choice and not something a grown adult needs to be told to do.
As far as the license issue I don't believe it should be required. I'm all for discounted insurance if you have taken a safety course. But I don't believe getting government involved will make people safer boaters.
We are all adults here. It is up to us to make safety a priority. Use your best judgement and know your equipment and surroundings.


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[RogerThat99]

I believe 100% that life jackets should be worn at speed. What speed I don't really know. It blows me away that we still here stories of guys testing boats or props or drives whatever with no jackets on. It is a test. You don't know what the results will be. Anything could go wrong.
That being said I don't believe it should be mandatory. It is a personal choice and not something a grown adult needs to be told to do.
As far as the license issue I don't believe it should be required. I'm all for discounted insurance if you have taken a safety course. But I don't believe getting government involved will make people safer boaters.
We are all adults here. It is up to us to make safety a priority. Use your best judgement and know your equipment and surroundings.


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^^^^This^^^^

[CampbellCarl]

The people I've given rides to have all requested a life jacket so not really an issue for me. :)

Understandable.........I have seen you drive..........

[Slacker]

We have a Toon, we motor around 30 mph. I don't require wearing jackets. But I do tell everyone who rides with me the location of the jackets.

[GotHalos]

Me neither,

40939

I don't let any one ride with me unless they have a helmet and jacket, unless I'm just cruising then just a jacket


:thumbup:

I would be all for a safety course too. I'm still shocked anyone can get behind the wheel of a boat or jet ski and have at it. I've seen some of the same stuff out in the ocean that I thought would only happen in a small body of water like the river.

[Sharp shooter]

Me neither,

I don't let any one ride with me unless they have a helmet and jacket, unless I'm just cruising then just a jacket

:thumbsUp:


Understandable.........I have seen you drive..........

At least somebody has seen me drive. :Banane21:

[Mitch]

Life jackets are cool but what about 1000 hp tunnels with a piece of shit Bravo hanging on the back . Who you trying to fool?So you pass a life jacket law how do you pass a law for stupid. Stupid causes way more deaths than lack of jackets .

[HB Vic]

Life jackets are cool but what about 1000 hp tunnels with a piece of shit Bravo hanging on the back . Who you trying to fool?So you pass a life jacket law how do you pass a law for stupid. Stupid causes way more deaths than lack of jackets .

Almost as bad as a 18' boat with 1600HP :wink_002:

Laws are made for the stupid, ignorant, cheaters, or those who have more money than brains. Personally I probably fall in to at least one of those categories :happy: I'll let you decide which one.

Remember when California passed the motorcycle helmet law? There was a rash of accidents and brains all over the streets, so the geniuses in Sacramento apparently felt they had no choice but to pass a helmet law.

I can kind of see the writing on the wall. Our fearless leaders are always looking for ways to earn their keep. Passing a mandatory life jacket law for all boats is right up their alley.

For the record I am not in favor of mandatory life jackets or any law for that matter that forces me to do something I may not want to do. Hell, if I had my way it wouldn't be mandatory on a PWC. Those fools can sink or swim for all I care LOL.

But as a boater with a tunnel and 1000hp :wink: I have reconsidered my personal choice to make jackets optional apparel on my Bravo slinging vessel. From now on they will be mandatory. My new personal choice.

[Eli]

Life jackets are cool but what about 1000 hp tunnels with a piece of shit Bravo hanging on the back . Who you trying to fool?So you pass a life jacket law how do you pass a law for stupid. Stupid causes way more deaths than lack of jackets .

Oh no!! Don't pass a law! That's crazy shit right there! People should just decide on their own.

If they took away the car seat belt law, I'd still wear one.


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[Eli]

Oh no!! Don't pass a law! That's crazy shit right there! People should just decide on their own.

If they took away the car seat belt law, I'd still wear one.


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What's going on here? I'm not even done with my first glass! WTF?

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[Mitch]

Oh no!! Don't pass a law! That's crazy shit right there! People should just decide on their own.

If they took away the car seat belt law, I'd still wear one.


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Read it again maybe you will get it.

[Eli]

Read it again maybe you will get it.

I understood what you meant I was agreeing with you. lol


I'm on the tail end of my drink please forgive me. This is usually when I put the phone away. ;)


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[SnoC653]

Almost as bad as a 18' boat with 1600HP :wink_002:

Laws are made for the stupid, ignorant, cheaters, or those who have more money than brains. Personally I probably fall in to at least one of those categories :happy: I'll let you decide which one.

Remember when California passed the motorcycle helmet law? There was a rash of accidents and brains all over the streets, so the geniuses in Sacramento apparently felt they had no choice but to pass a helmet law.

I can kind of see the writing on the wall. Our fearless leaders are always looking for ways to earn their keep. Passing a mandatory life jacket law for all boats is right up their alley.

For the record I am not in favor of mandatory life jackets or any law for that matter that forces me to do something I may not want to do. Hell, if I had my way it wouldn't be mandatory on a PWC. Those fools can sink or swim for all I care LOL.

But as a boater with a tunnel and 1000hp :wink: I have reconsidered my personal choice to make jackets optional apparel on my Bravo slinging vessel. From now on they will be mandatory. My new personal choice.

In today's law suit happy society that is probably a good choice. That is why I hand them the jacket. If they choose not to wear it, the liability is on them. It was placed in their hands.

[Sharp shooter]

Almost as bad as a 18' boat with 1600HP :wink_002:

Laws are made for the stupid, ignorant, cheaters, or those who have more money than brains. Personally I probably fall in to at least one of those categories :happy: I'll let you decide which one.

Remember when California passed the motorcycle helmet law? There was a rash of accidents and brains all over the streets, so the geniuses in Sacramento apparently felt they had no choice but to pass a helmet law.

I can kind of see the writing on the wall. Our fearless leaders are always looking for ways to earn their keep. Passing a mandatory life jacket law for all boats is right up their alley.

For the record I am not in favor of mandatory life jackets or any law for that matter that forces me to do something I may not want to do. Hell, if I had my way it wouldn't be mandatory on a PWC. Those fools can sink or swim for all I care LOL.

But as a boater with a tunnel and 1000hp :wink: I have reconsidered my personal choice to make jackets optional apparel on my Bravo slinging vessel. From now on they will be mandatory. My new personal choice.

I'm glad you said 1600 and not 1500. :indifferent0001::bat::smilies_mit_hut019::raining :

[HB Vic]

In today's law suit happy society that is probably a good choice. That is why I hand them the jacket. If they choose not to wear it, the liability is on them. It was placed in their hands.

I'm glad you brought this up.

You as the owner and operator of the boat, in the event of an accident, whether or not you were at fault, probably stands a good chance of being sued. Especially if one of the injured passengers is not a very close friend or family member. That's always a consideration when I put people in my boat. Not that a good friend or family member would not sue, but the chances are lessened imo. I will change my driving habits depending on who is in my boat. Not that I'm reckless with friends and/or family in the boat, but I will speed it up a little. Now with someone I don't know too well or younger kids, different ballgame. I'm going to drive like a granny in her Buick on the 405 :D

As far as getting out of a lawsuit simply because you "offered" life jackets to your passengers, I wouldn't count on it. If you're going to get sued, you're going to get sued. The lawyers will end up arguing that the jackets were old, outdated too small, too big, or not the right color for the occasion :D

[HB Vic]

I'm glad you said 1600 and not 1500. :indifferent0001::bat::smilies_mit_hut019::raining :

I had to search my mental database to make sure I didn't offend anyone here :D

[HB Vic]

I guess no one wants to touch the "makes it easier to recover the bodies" typical response to life jackets.

I pretty much agree with that statement. If you're going 100+ there is a very good chance you're not gonna make it. And that Life jacket or even lifeline isn't going to help you survive that accident.

But what it will probably do is prevent the divers from spending hours, days or even sometimes weeks to recover your body. Why is that a big deal if you're already clubbin it with the Grim Reaper?

Your friends and family.

They won't be waiting hours, days or weeks for closure.

So if you won't put it on for you, put it on for them.

HB


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[Napanutt]

Laws are made for the stupid, ignorant, cheaters, or those who have more money than brains. Personally I probably fall in to at least one of those categories :happy: I'll let you decide which one.

I tell the wife all the time that laws are for pussys that are too afraid to push the limits. Yea, I fall into one or more of those categories.


If they took away the car seat belt law, I'd still wear one.

I don't wear a seat belt ALL the time because it's a law. Law's don't scare me. It's just prudent.

[Singleton]

My boat rules are
- kids under 16 have to wear jackets when engine is running
- adults (everyone over 16) wears them if I am planning on going over 60

[gn7]

I guess no one wants to touch the "makes it easier to recover the bodies" typical response to life jackets.


I'll go there.
Off the top of my head, Tony Scarlota at Ming, Paul Fitzgerald at Parker, Jim Bandelin at Long Beach, and I am guessing, possibly Andrew Games at Havasu, could potentially no longer be us if they weren't wearing jackets.

Ski racers fall at 100 plus all the time. Its not the speed that kills you, its usually the boat.

Granted, these crashes occurred at races where jackets are required. My point is, you don't have to be dead for "easier" recovery to be a benefit that could potentially save you life.

Imagine getting an autopsy report on a loved one that said the cause if death was drowning.

Yeah, Tony is under there
40947
40948

No, Fitz isn't checking the steering gear
40949

[HB Vic]

My boat rules are
- kids under 16 have to wear jackets when engine is running
- adults (everyone over 16) wears them if I am planning on going over 60

I thought about that but my problem is if the waters decent there's a good chance I'll press the pedal harder and harder. My boat doesn't even start to act right until it hits 70+. So I don't think that will work in my case.

My only thought is right now all I have are lifelines. And we usually only wear them for poker runs. They are not comfortable, and they're bulky. I may step down to a regular boating jacket for running the river and lakes and keep the Lifelines for the PR's.

[Singleton]

I thought about that but my problem is if the waters decent there's a good chance I'll press the pedal harder and harder. My boat doesn't even start to act right until it hits 70+. So I don't think that will work in my case.

My only thought is right now all I have are lifelines. And we usually only wear them for poker runs. They are not comfortable, and they're bulky. I may step down to a regular boating jacket for running the river and lakes and keep the Lifelines for the PR's.

I have been known not to follow the rules on my boat, but I am trying to get better at it.

[CampbellCarl]

So what are options size? comfort? Inflatable? Stylish? For example, Lifelines aren't USCG approved. So, what on your boat? Orange Walmart specials are in my boat right now.

[HB Vic]

So what are options size? comfort? Inflatable? Stylish? For example, Lifelines aren't USCG approved. So, what on your boat? Orange Walmart specials are in my boat right now.

Probably looking for comfort at this point.


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[djunkie]

I thought about that but my problem is if the waters decent there's a good chance I'll press the pedal harder and harder. My boat doesn't even start to act right until it hits 70+. So I don't think that will work in my case.

My only thought is right now all I have are lifelines. And we usually only wear them for poker runs. They are not comfortable, and they're bulky. I may step down to a regular boating jacket for running the river and lakes and keep the Lifelines for the PR's.

I'd wear the lifelines. In the event of a crash at last they'll float you face up if you're knocked unconscious.

As for me. No jackets required. If you wanna wear them I'll supply you with one. But I don't require it unless you're a child. But my boat isn't exactly fast so to me not a big deal.

[Paul65K]

I thought about that but my problem is if the waters decent there's a good chance I'll press the pedal harder and harder. My boat doesn't even start to act right until it hits 70+. So I don't think that will work in my case.

My only thought is right now all I have are lifelines. And we usually only wear them for poker runs. They are not comfortable, and they're bulky. I may step down to a regular boating jacket for running the river and lakes and keep the Lifelines for the PR's.Don't you have to carry other CG approved life jackets anyhow.......When I was looking at Lifelines on-line the other day I saw that they do not carry USCG approvals.....wouldn't you be at risk with only those during a "Safety inspection"??

Don't get me wrong.....I'm not trying to stir up anything I was just wondering as I was flabbergasted when I read this on the website when I was contemplating buying one.

I hope I am completely wrong cuz I have never heard a bad thing about Lifelines but I'm asking an honest question here. :headscratch:

[HB Vic]

I don't think I have anything but lifelines on my boat. Someday when I get back out there I will check. lol


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[Eli]

I don't think I have anything but lifelines on my boat. Someday when I get back out there I will check. lol


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I'm kidnapping Chick and Pix! We are gonna party with or without you!


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[Havasuing]

Although the Lifeline jackets are the best on the market IMO, they are not U.S. Coast Guard approved (an issue of high cost of certification and relatively low production volume) it can be a problem if stopped for a 'safety' check on-the-water by law enforcement (better have some of those attractive orange horse-collar ones on-board just to be safe). Also, don't assume that your 'race' jacket or your 'high-performance sport' jacket will automatically turn and float you face-up in case of a bad accident -- it may not. Although they are designed for that purpose, body type, height, weight, clothing, driving suit, etc. may prevent that from happening. The only way to know for sure is to head to the nearest swimming pool, buckle-up and take a full speed running leap (try it several times with several different entry positions). Once you hit the water, go limp (no cheating). If you're not floating on your back, face-up in thirty seconds, that jacket needs to go back to the manufacturer and have them modify the flotation material (if you take pictures or a short video of your swimming pool trials, it will help get the problem solved). Remember, if the jacket has leg straps, those should be very loose so the jacket can ride-up around your neck and under your chin for more support where you need it.

[boat411]

I posted this on your FB as well. I'm willing to bet it gets deleted.

Vic (HotBoat), I know you heard about the accident at Folsom Lake that claimed the lives of our friends two weeks ago. Your thread and comments about life vests is not only poor timing but shows that you and your website have no class and will do anything to get views.

[HB Vic]

I posted this on your FB as well. I'm willing to bet it gets deleted.

Vic (HotBoat), I know you heard about the accident at Folsom Lake that claimed the lives of our friends two weeks ago. Your thread and comments about life vests is not only poor timing but shows that you and your website have no class and will do anything to get views.

Life jackets have been a debated topic forever. This thread and the topic has absolutely nothing to do with that accident or your friends. If you think it does I apologize.

I did not delete the FB thread. I'm not sure who did. But I will find out.

No class? It that's what you think I won't even attempt to change your mind. You said your friends. So I'm am sorry for your loss. But this topic and thread has absolutely nothing to do with that accident.

HB


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[HB Vic]

I just checked with the only other person who has access to the hotboat FB account. He did not delete anything. So that means the OP had to delete it.


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[boat411]

There have been a few recent boat incidents involving boaters operating their boats without life jackets. Both recreational boaters and racers have lost their lives in boating accidents over the past several months to a year.


This thread and the topic has absolutely nothing to do with that accident or your friends. If you think it does I apologize.


Really? Name one other recreational accident in the last year. I lost a lot of respect for you.

[HB Vic]

Really? Name one other recreational accident in the last year. I lost a lot of respect for you.

There have been a few Grads. Have a good night.


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[SnoC653]

There have been a few Grads. Have a good night.


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More than a few. Coast Guard stats show 2013 as safer than 2012.

The fatality rate for 2013 of 4.7 deaths per 100,000 registered recreational vessels reflected a 13 percent decrease from the previous year's rate of 5.4 deaths per 100,000 registered recreational vessels. Property damage totaled approximately $39 million.
"We are pleased that there have been fewer accidents on waterways in recent years and thank our partners for their work," said Capt. Jon Burton, director of inspections and compliance at U.S. Coast Guard Headquarters. "Together we will continue to stress the importance of life jacket use, boating education courses and sober boating."
The report states alcohol use was the leading known contributing factor in fatal boating accidents; it was listed as the leading factor in 16 percent of deaths. Operator inattention, improper lookout, operator inexperience, excessive speed and machinery failure ranked as the top five primary contributing factors in accidents.
Where the cause of death was known, 77 percent of fatal boating accident victims drowned; of those drowning victims, 84 percent were not wearing a life jacket. Where boating instruction was known, 20 percent of deaths occurred on vessels where the operator had received boating safety instruction. The most common types of vessels involved in reported accidents were open motorboats, personal watercraft and cabin motorboats.

The full article can be read here: http://lakeexpo.com/news/lake_news/article_1d2d2686-e2f0-11e3-9b69-001a4bcf887a.html
Or go to the USCG document here: http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/AssetManager/2013RecBoatingStats.pdf

77% is a big number in my book and it is easy to bring that number down.

[gn7]

Deleting, hiding and banning. Nothing new to see here

[RogerThat99]

I went out on the Delta yesterday and all 4 of us wore jackets all day.

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[HB Vic]

Deleting, hiding and banning. Nothing new to see here

What was deleted??


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[gn7]

I did not delete the FB thread. I'm not sure who did. But I will find out.


HB



What was deleted??



Nothing. There never is.

[SnoC653]

I just checked with the only other person who has access to the hotboat FB account. He did not delete anything. So that means the OP had to delete it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nothing. There never is.

You missed a quote. Nothing was.

[gn7]

You missed a quote. Nothing was.

There never is.
I've been known to delete/hide a few posts of my own. So I've been told.

[spike morelli]

I say......wear a good life jacket or vest, the newer ones are pretty comfortable too. Hopefully, you'll not need the protection, but that precludes the idea that the person operating the watercraft is using common sense, I.E. not going above cruising speeds with passengers, not overloaded, not intoxicated, crossing waves properly, etc,etc. LSD wasn't illegal to use until people started abusing the drug, fender laws for hot rods, exhaust decibel limits, all at one time were unrestricted until PEOPLE kept abusing things. Lawmakers love to use idiots as their example of everyday America to pass laws, and lawsuits keep Lawyers in a new BMW every year. So...stop feeding the fire....don't operate your boat like an idiot, and wear a good vest!

[Stainless]

Welcome Spike.



CH3NO2

[thatguy]

Regulating common sense and self preservation by gov. mandate is never a good idea. There is little doubt that, eventually, there will be required boat operators permit that will be obtained by paying for a Gov. approved or taught "safety course".
Like most things the gov requires in the name of safety, it will be a revenue generator, and branch into regs that resemble 49 CFR.

While it may seem like a good thing to "require" this or that, you just can't regulate stupid, and you can not mandate common sense.
Case in point, Drunk driving.
Every single person not in a coma knows it is illegal to drink and drive.
Who here is 100% not guilty? (I know there are a few)


I had a DUI. From arrest to end 3 years later it cost me about 20k. NOT ONCE in the process was safety or dangers with drunk driving mentioned.
Not from the LEO with his boot on my neck, the loser dyke intake officer, the judge who was running about 30 DUI cases through before noon, the court monkey who I gave $150.00 to so I could be analyzed for level of corrective counciling required to correct me, the MADD mother seminar I had to pay to attend, the 3 days of incarceration, the 3 years of SR22, etc.
The ONLY topic ever discussed or decided during this process was how much I would pay.

Having ranted on with that, I will say that my love of fast, loud, insane looking boats is in part a conscious decision to remove myself from doing that on the street.
Having a division 7 points earning super street Nova tended to cost me a lot in violations, so I trailered it and just raced.
Fun for 10 seconds at a time, at about 50 bucks a second minimum.
So I took a ride in a 5 rib Sanger one day and the light bulb came on!!!


Now we are discussing bringing the rules of commuting to the last vestige of affordable recreation and enjoyment?
I don't think so.

"Let's make a life vest law"? Seriously?
"Let's make a license law" Are you kidding me?

We wear our high dollar vests while under way 100% now.
Have I pegged it without the vest? Yes I have, and I always think how foolish it was later on.
NO ONE rides without a vest I approve of or supply.

A person that can afford a half million dollar, 150 MPH boat can do as they wish. Personally, I would have a few HP boat classes under my belt before I turned the key on such a machine. We are way past bobbers at that point.

So yeah, wear the vest or be an idiot.
But at least own a fucking boat before trying to dictate law and regs on me and my hobby.

God I love drunk posting!!!!

[thatguy]

I say......wear a good life jacket or vest, the newer ones are pretty comfortable too. Hopefully, you'll not need the protection, but that precludes the idea that the person operating the watercraft is using common sense, I.E. not going above cruising speeds with passengers, not overloaded, not intoxicated, crossing waves properly, etc,etc. LSD wasn't illegal to use until people started abusing the drug, fender laws for hot rods, exhaust decibel limits, all at one time were unrestricted until PEOPLE kept abusing things. Lawmakers love to use idiots as their example of everyday America to pass laws, and lawsuits keep Lawyers in a new BMW every year. So...stop feeding the fire....don't operate your boat like an idiot, and wear a good vest!

WOT or stay on the bank.

[thatguy]

My 9yo grandson is doing 70 MPH in my sig pic.

Note vest...happy?
Yeah I got a hand on the wheel, don't freak out on me.

He knows how to hit recall on the auto meter gps and he seen that Grandma Deb did 80mph.
He's pissed.
Told me this summer he is going 80 or pretty much he's done visiting.

[HB Vic]

Are the auto inflate jackets any good??


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[RogerThat99]

Are the auto inflate jackets any good??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It depends on the speed you are going. The only auto inflate jackets I have worn are the lifeline ones. They are probably the best auto inflate jackets you can buy, but I don't know if they would stay on at high speed since they don't have crotch straps. I have been 115 wearing one of the auto inflates in a larger boat. I wouldn't be comfortable wearing one at that speed in a flat or hydro.

I have a lifeline race jacket, but when I go fast in a flat or hydro I usually wear a chute jacket with thigh straps. My race jacket would be OK, but not as good as a chute jacket. Just like a ski vest could work at 90 mph, but a lifeline would be much better.

Sent using Tapatalk.

[Mrs.K034]

It depends on the speed you are going. I think the lifeline ones I have worn would get ripped off at high speed.

I have a lifeline race jacket, but when I go fast in a flat or hydro I usually wear a chute jacket with thigh straps. My race jacket would be OK, but not as good as a chute jacket. Just like a ski vest could work at 90 mph, but a lifeline would be much better.

Sent using Tapatalk.

Ok?? So what chute jacket do you wear? The first chute jacket that Chris wore was a lifeline.

[RogerThat99]

Ok?? So what chute jacket do you wear? The first chute jacket that Chris wore was a lifeline.

To clarify, the lifelines I was talking about getting ripped off, are the inflatable vests (I edited my original post). I just don't know if they would stay on at 120 + mph.

I wear a lifeline chute jacket and I like them a lot (I don't own one. I have to borrow one). My Lifeline jacket is an offshore race jacket for a non canopied boat. It has large crotch straps that go all the way up and over your shoulders and lots of ballistic material, but it doesn't have a chute or thigh straps. It works great for the speeds that I go most of the time.

I am not a jacket expert, I just feel my jacket isn't sufficient for a 150mph pass in a hydro. If it was all I had, I would wear it, but I feel much more comfortable wearing a chute jacket at that speed.

[thatguy]

Don't forget the Kevlar shorts and bucket restraints with the chute jacket! :)


http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/thomasljr/Boats/gearedup.jpg

[RogerThat99]

Don't forget the Kevlar shorts and bucket restraints with the chute jacket! :)


http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s170/thomasljr/Boats/gearedup.jpg

Thanks Tommy. Ballistic shorts are very important. I rarely wear them, but I should. The results of not wearing them is not good at all.

[Luvnlife]

Thanks Tommy. Ballistic shorts are very important. I rarely wear them, but I should. The results of not wearing them is not good at all.

Get a pair and wear them, the flip side of not wearing them when needed really sucks ;)

[thatguy]

Thanks Tommy. Ballistic shorts are very important. I rarely wear them, but I should. The results of not wearing them is not good at all.

It paints an ugly picture for sure....

I don't have the helmet restraints yet in that pic, but I have them now.

[Luvnlife]

Over regulation by the gov is never the answer. If you are riding in a boat and feel that you should have a life jacket on then ask the operator for one, if he doesn't have one for you or says you don't need one he is not responsible. We do not wear life vests in our boat, my son does as he is underage. With that being said I never do anything to put my family in danger, because I'm responsible. If I was going for speed runs or on a fast paced poker runs I would do the responsible thing and put on jackets made for what I was intending to do, as in lifelines. Now for those that saying life jackets help in body rescue/recovery then then the people involved should be doing the responsible thing already by wearing those jackets. For those that say anything can happen like another boat hitting me this is true, but a plane can fall out of the sky on me also. What was I suppose to do have my bimini up? What I am is observant as I operate looking for potential hazards. I don't want licensing but am for a safety program that rewards people with lower insurance rates, that is an incentive to get educated. Thanks for reading ;)

[Just Electric]

What about a kill switch land yard too. Many recreational hot rods I've seen at the river and pairing up with other boats maken passes on the river if you get pitched I don't need your boat still going into those that are beaches and floating. I run both a lifeline and a kill switch land yard in my turd

[HB Vic]

What about a kill switch land yard too. Many recreational hot rods I've seen at the river and pairing up with other boats maken passes on the river if you get pitched I don't need your boat still going into those that are beaches and floating. I run both a lifeline and a kill switch land yard in my turd

Very good point. And thank you for reminding me. I have a switch, but no lanyard.


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[riverrunner1984]

What about a kill switch land yard too. Many recreational hot rods I've seen at the river and pairing up with other boats maken passes on the river if you get pitched I don't need your boat still going into those that are beaches and floating. I run both a lifeline and a kill switch land yard in my turd

I really like the kill switch idea!

[gn7]

Although some I/O and outboards have self closing throttles, most don't.
Think about somebody getting tossed from a 18ft flat bottom and it idles around until...... and a twin engine cat doing 110 until.........

[Just Electric]

Although some I/O and outboards have self closing throttles, most don't.
Think about somebody getting tossed from a 18ft flat bottom and it idles around until...... and a twin engine cat doing 110 until.........

Very true gn7 most of the bigger boats run fast in more open waters I was was leaning towards all the smaller boats running the more narrow parts of the river. Plus what I've seen at som of Tom papps memorials where people are running hardware that's pretty darn scary with no regards to the other peeps safety. I guess we can't fix stupid

[KAP]

Commentary:

This topic comes up all the time with me. Why? Well everyone in my boat wears PFD's like or not. If not then get in your own boat and make your own rules.

It comes up because sometimes people want to talk smack. For Example..."hey KAP were's the race at"...why are you all "rickey racerd up" with jackets and stuff. My common reply is my wife needs to recover the body so she can collect the life insurance! The other is because I drive faster than your 55 MPH boat. Usually it's crickets after that if not I have more arrows in the quiver.

This topic is an interesting one. First and foremost, I am emphatically against mandatory PFD's on boats for adults and that goes for licensing as well. The marine industry is in the dumps right now so we don't want more obstacles to people boating we want to be inclusive.

A key issue that has not been discussed is what type of water are you boating on? Also speed is an issue if your driving a pontoon with a 90 HP outboard your top speed is like 19MPH. [You can skip this section.] In the ocean or anything remotely offshore if you don't wear a PFD in a performance boat... your simply a dumb azz and you need to be eliminated from the gene pool...just kidding...with some truth tinged in. Speed aside the ocean is not a place to mess around I don't care if your going 10knots. If your boat sinks and your not wearing a PFD your chances of dying are extremely high.

We can all agree on the above right! It should still be a choice but good Captains should make it a requirement.

Next is all other water types big lakes and rivers. In those situations I would say speed is more critical in making a determination. For Example...if you cruising LOTO in a 75ft Viking the PFD issue is a non-issue. Yeah you may have the but if X or Y...it is still an exception but the majority of the time a PFD is a moot point. I would not wear one it's uncomfortable when I'm trying to make a sandwich or use the facilities...note...large amounts of sarcasm.

Now if your cruising a performance boat at high speed you most certainly should be wearing a PFD and everyone on board. Will it save everyone's life probably not but it boosts your odds of surviving. Even more so if you have a performance PFD such a Lifeline, SRP, or Mustang. Now I own a Lifeline and can tell you it is 100% amazing. I have done the pool test dunk test and it is worth every penny. As a big guy it holds me high out of the water and rolls me onto my back. Plus, what people fail to realize is the impact absorbing ability of the vest. At high speed the body impacts both the water and possibly the boat. The impact will certainly render you incapacitated or unconscious that is where the high performance vest shines over the standard type Class IV PFD.

Sidenote: Water intrusion at high speed [for argument lets say 100MPH or more] will certainly kill you easily. Either through your mouth or rear end hence the need for ballistic shorts and helmets. The water intrusion is a completely different topic.

I regularly cruise at speeds in excess of 80MPH and even at that speed you can get killed. So anything over 90MPH should be a no brainer everyone gets a PFD.

I have done many a Poker Run and find myself and crew to be usually... the only ones wearing PFD's. I don't point fingers at those that don't unless it is a kid without one then get ready to hear it. If I am cruising my PFD is right next to me it only takes a minute to put it on...and yeah I don't always do the leg straps but buckled in a KILL SWITCH attached. [That is for another thread but rarely do I see anyone wearing a kill switch attached.]

Have I run without a PFD at high speed answer is YES but it is a rare occasion. Mr. & Mrs. Hotboat have witnessed first hand my requirement of everyone wears a PFD aboard my boat. Lastly, it is up to the Captain of the boat to make the rules because ultimately they are responsible for everyone aboard their vessel...and that is the law.

Wishing all my Hotboat members a safe and enjoyable summer boating season.

[Eli]

Commentary:

This topic comes up all the time with me. Why? Well everyone in my boat wears PFD's like or not. If not then get in your own boat and make your own rules.

It comes up because sometimes people want to talk smack. For Example..."hey KAP were's the race at"...why are you all "rickey racerd up" with jackets and stuff. My common reply is my wife needs to recover the body so she can collect the life insurance! The other is because I drive faster than your 55 MPH boat. Usually it's crickets after that if not I have more arrows in the quiver.

This topic is an interesting one. First and foremost, I am emphatically against mandatory PFD's on boats for adults and that goes for licensing as well. The marine industry is in the dumps right now so we don't want more obstacles to people boating we want to be inclusive.

A key issue that has not been discussed is what type of water are you boating on? Also speed is an issue if your driving a pontoon with a 90 HP outboard your top speed is like 19MPH. [You can skip this section.] In the ocean or anything remotely offshore if you don't wear a PFD in a performance boat... your simply a dumb azz and you need to be eliminated from the gene pool...just kidding...with some truth tinged in. Speed aside the ocean is not a place to mess around I don't care if your going 10knots. If your boat sinks and your not wearing a PFD your chances of dying are extremely high.

We can all agree on the above right! It should still be a choice but good Captains should make it a requirement.

Next is all other water types big lakes and rivers. In those situations I would say speed is more critical in making a determination. For Example...if you cruising LOTO in a 75ft Viking the PFD issue is a non-issue. Yeah you may have the but if X or Y...it is still an exception but the majority of the time a PFD is a moot point. I would not wear one it's uncomfortable when I'm trying to make a sandwich or use the facilities...note...large amounts of sarcasm.

Now if your cruising a performance boat at high speed you most certainly should be wearing a PFD and everyone on board. Will it save everyone's life probably not but it boosts your odds of surviving. Even more so if you have a performance PFD such a Lifeline, SRP, or Mustang. Now I own a Lifeline and can tell you it is 100% amazing. I have done the pool test dunk test and it is worth every penny. As a big guy it holds me high out of the water and rolls me onto my back. Plus, what people fail to realize is the impact absorbing ability of the vest. At high speed the body impacts both the water and possibly the boat. The impact will certainly render you incapacitated or unconscious that is where the high performance vest shines over the standard type Class IV PFD.

Sidenote: Water intrusion at high speed [for argument lets say 100MPH or more] will certainly kill you easily. Either through your mouth or rear end hence the need for ballistic shorts and helmets. The water intrusion is a completely different topic.

I regularly cruise at speeds in excess of 80MPH and even at that speed you can get killed. So anything over 90MPH should be a no brainer everyone gets a PFD.

I have done many a Poker Run and find myself and crew to be usually... the only ones wearing PFD's. I don't point fingers at those that don't unless it is a kid without one then get ready to hear it. If I am cruising my PFD is right next to me it only takes a minute to put it on...and yeah I don't always do the leg straps but buckled in a KILL SWITCH attached. [That is for another thread but rarely do I see anyone wearing a kill switch attached.]

Have I run without a PFD at high speed answer is YES but it is a rare occasion. Mr. & Mrs. Hotboat have witnessed first hand my requirement of everyone wears a PFD aboard my boat. Lastly, it is up to the Captain of the boat to make the rules because ultimately they are responsible for everyone aboard their vessel...and that is the law.

Wishing all my Hotboat members a safe and enjoyable summer boating season.

Great post!

Why not just tell the people who make sarcastic comments "there are exits in every direction, feel free to use one." ;)


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[KAP]

Great post!

Why not just tell the people who make sarcastic comments "there are exits in every direction, feel free to use one." ;)


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Eli:

It really gets old a lot of times I simply do not say anything anymore. If they need me to explain it to them...its already an uphill battle lol.

This topic can bring out a lot of personal issues for people. I for one don't preach PFD use it is up to responsible boat Captains to exercise prudence. Another issue aka pet peeve for me is when Captains of performance boats fail to wear kill lanyards/switches. So if you choose to not wear a PFD in YOUR boat at least wear the kill switch. Even more so if your out boating solo or with one other person. In the ocean you better be wearing both your PFD and KILL switch if you get tossed out. You will not only have a hard time treading water for hours but your boat could be heading off without you for miles. Versus being within swimming distance of where you got tossed out.

P.S. Great topic...it would be interesting to see who uses their kill switch lanyard. I know of some boaters that do not even know why it's on the boat.

[gn7]

Eli:
In the ocean you better be wearing both your PFD and KILL switch if you get tossed out. You will not only have a hard time treading water for hours but your boat could be heading off without you for miles. Versus being within swimming distance of where you got tossed out.


I can't say my heart bleeds too much for somebody that is stupid enough to drive a boat, or ride in a boat in the ocean that doesn't have a lanyard kill switch.
But you wouldn't want to be the moron that got tossed from his boat doing 100+ on the river. You couldn't swim fast enough or far enough.

[ptc]

Regulating common sense and self preservation by gov. mandate is never a good idea. There is little doubt that, eventually, there will be required boat operators permit that will be obtained by paying for a Gov. approved or taught "safety course". Like most things the gov requires in the name of safety, it will be a revenue generator, and branch into regs that resemble 49 CFR.

While it may seem like a good thing to "require" this or that, you just can't regulate stupid, and you can not mandate common sense. Case in point, Drunk driving. Every single person not in a coma knows it is illegal to drink and drive. Who here is 100% not guilty? (I know there are a few)


I had a DUI. From arrest to end 3 years later it cost me about 20k. NOT ONCE in the process was safety or dangers with drunk driving mentioned. Not from the LEO with his boot on my neck, the loser dyke intake officer, the judge who was running about 30 DUI cases through before noon, the court monkey who I gave $150.00 to so I could be analyzed for level of corrective counciling required to correct me, the MADD mother seminar I had to pay to attend, the 3 days of incarceration, the 3 years of SR22, etc. The ONLY topic ever discussed or decided during this process was how much I would pay.

Having ranted on with that, I will say that my love of fast, loud, insane looking boats is in part a conscious decision to remove myself from doing that on the street. Having a division 7 points earning super street Nova tended to cost me a lot in violations, so I trailered it and just raced. Fun for 10 seconds at a time, at about 50 bucks a second minimum. So I took a ride in a 5 rib Sanger one day and the light bulb came on!!!

Now we are discussing bringing the rules of commuting to the last vestige of affordable recreation and enjoyment? I don't think so.

"Let's make a life vest law"? Seriously? "Let's make a license law" Are you kidding me?

We wear our high dollar vests while under way 100% now. Have I pegged it without the vest? Yes I have, and I always think how foolish it was later on. NO ONE rides without a vest I approve of or supply.

A person that can afford a half million dollar, 150 MPH boat can do as they wish. Personally, I would have a few HP boat classes under my belt before I turned the key on such a machine. We are way past bobbers at that point.

So yeah, wear the vest or be an idiot.

But at least own a fucking boat before trying to dictate law and regs on me and my hobby.

God I love drunk posting!!!!

Thank You very Much Tommy for posting the OBVIOUS!!!! All you people out there posting that dont even own boats should STFU!.... your vote doesnt and shouldnt COUNT EVER until you take the responsibility of being a boat owner!

As for what Tommy also stated - he is absolutely right in the fact that you need to follow the money! thats where this will all lead, you know it will. Manufacturers, LEOS the courts, and lawyers will make bank off this.... and thats all they care about. They dont give one shit about your safety are you kidding me?????

Boating really is the last vestige of still allowing un-adulterated "speed" as we all know it.... all of our rights for hot-rodding have been totally taken away on the streets with laws (over stupidity I know) do we really want them on the water too now? When will it end? Where will we get our thrill for speed anymore 'legally'? Will everything have to be done outside the law in the future??? Sure seems so for our kids!

As for Vic stating anything about Moto helmets and voters that DONT RIDE.... WTF? Vic do you ride? Why do any of you people think you can make rules for what I do when I ride???? CA LAW says I have to have INSURANCE to pay for my death or my injuries if in an accident (with or without a helmet on) so dont give me no shit about having to pay for my emergency services because none of you pay shit for me or any other rider.

This life jacket discussion crap is a bunch of bullshit.... STUPID should HURT!!!! If you dont wear one you DIE.... simple as that.... clean out this GENETIC POOL of garbage and you'll find life a lot easier to deal with....

sorry to be harsh....

[HB Vic]

Actually I do ride. People should never assume too much. Sometimes it bites you in the ass :D

[Eli]

Actually I do ride. People should never assume too much. Sometimes it bites you in the ass :D

Insert pigeon example


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