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View Full Version : correct angle for a drive shaft with 2 joints



ogshotgun
03-06-2014, 11:33 AM
Ok iam a ? for some sound advice , once my drive is installed , the question is aim running a drive shaft with 1350 u jints on both ends one on the flywheel side one on the drive side, i know a lot of guys use a solid input shaft with no u joint, but i don't have that set up , so i do know the u joints can not be in a straight line they like a little angle. What is the right angle ?

ogshotgun
03-06-2014, 11:40 AM
35551this is what i have

WESTERNAERO
03-06-2014, 11:41 AM
Nice wagon....:thumb:

ogshotgun
03-06-2014, 11:46 AM
Nice wagon....:thumb:
wagon ? doesn't every one have a v-drive cart like that ? lol

Mitch
03-06-2014, 12:05 PM
Ok iam a ? for some sound advice , once my drive is installed , the question is aim running a drive shaft with 1350 u jints on both ends one on the flywheel side one on the drive side, i know a lot of guys use a solid input shaft with no u joint, but i don't have that set up , so i do know the u joints can not be in a straight line they like a little angle. What is the right angle ?

Max 7 degrees minimum 2 degrees .......

WESTERNAERO
03-06-2014, 12:08 PM
What Mitch said........

ogshotgun
03-06-2014, 12:45 PM
Max 7 degrees minimum 2 degrees ....... joe should one be up one degree and the other down one degree ? so the motor sits kind of level to the stringers?

Mitch
03-06-2014, 01:33 PM
joe should one be up one degree and the other down one degree ? so the motor sits kind of level to the stringers?

V Drive 90 degrees to the stringers , 2 degrees minimum drive shaft rise to the engine ,I would set the engine at the same rake as the drive shaft.

gn7
03-06-2014, 02:58 PM
V Drive 90 degrees to the stringers , 2 degrees minimum drive shaft rise to the engine ,I would set the engine at the same rake as the drive shaft.

Are you suggesting he remounts his V drive, including resetting his strut, and possibly moving one if not both if need be? V drive angle trumps the prop shaft angle and strut placement?

If I have a Biesemeyer with a 7* strut/shaft angle, how do I get the top shaft of a 10* box parallel to, or the mounting flange 90* to the stringers?

gn7
03-06-2014, 03:17 PM
, so i do know the u joints can not be in a straight line they like a little angle. What is the right angle ?


Max 7 degrees minimum 2 degrees .......

Straight inline being a problem is a myth. The joints would out last your next 5 cars and 3 boats.
Think about it, if the joints we dead inline, nothing moves, including the needles everyone seems to think would fail, supposedly from lack of lube or some such nonsense. You wouldn't need lube. You wash the lube out and run it just fine. Nothing is moving. You could weld the u joint to the yokes and it would work fine.
1* is not as great, but it beats 25 all to hell. I can find you dozens of pictures u joint failure due to excessive angle in manufacture's tech bulletins and , you can't find me one due to lack of angle.

2manymustangs
03-06-2014, 04:01 PM
joe should one be up one degree and the other down one degree ? so the motor sits kind of level to the stringers?

When I built my motor plates to install my 385 series BBF in my sanger I set them up to have the driveshaft run at a strait shot into the Casale. The Casale box was unchanged from the factory mount / position...

I can't see how there is any alternative to perfect alighnment between your strut/prop shaft/casale output... The Casale angle/position can't change once the strut is set as GN7 stated... Except for maybe forward and UP...

Mitch
03-06-2014, 04:05 PM
Straight inline being a problem is a myth. The joints would out last your next 5 cars and 3 boats.
Think about it, if the joints we dead inline, nothing moves, including the needles everyone seems to think would fail, supposedly from lack of lube or some such nonsense. You wouldn't need lube. You wash the lube out and run it just fine. Nothing is moving. You could weld the u joint to the yokes and it would work fine.
1* is not as great, but it beats 25 all to hell. I can find you dozens of pictures u joint failure due to excessive angle in manufacture's tech bulletins and , you can't find me one due to lack of angle.

Hes a re rig new stringers no holes and yes I get strut angle versus v drive with a exesting strut I talked with Michael today on the phone and figured you would have some good input also. He thinking his v drive may lean 2 degrees forward .

Mitch
03-06-2014, 04:22 PM
When I built my motor plates to install my 385 series BBF in my sanger I set them up to have the driveshaft run at a strait shot into the Casale. The Casale box was unchanged from the factory mount / position...

I can't see how there is any alternative to perfect alighnment between your strut/prop shaft/casale output... The Casale angle/position can't change once the strut is set as GN7 stated... Except for maybe forward and UP...

Straight in will work, u joint mfgs reccomend at least 2 degrees pre loading a shaft can prevent whip on longer shafts and helps with drive shaft harmonics .

2manymustangs
03-06-2014, 04:30 PM
Straight in will work, u joint mfgs reccomend at least 2 degrees pre loading a shaft can prevent whip on longer shafts and helps with drive shaft harmonics .

Yep, I know that in car/truck applications it's pretty important for Ujoint longevity/chatter/lubrication of the needles...

I just did what I saw others doing when it came to setting up my motor plates AND the way it appeared to be set up from Sanger when my hydro was sporting a BBC (with factory motor plates)...

gn7
03-06-2014, 05:26 PM
Hes a re rig new stringers no holes and yes I get strut angle versus v drive with a exesting strut I talked with Michael today on the phone and figured you would have some good input also. He thinking his v drive may lean 2 degrees forward .

His V drive angle is what the prop shaft angle says it its. No matter where the box gets mounted, the top shaft angle is going to be whatever it is due to the prop shaft ange. He could put a prop shaft in it that 4ft too long and the box is on the deck, the angle of the box is the same.

Where the box falls in the boat is determined by the shaft angle as well. You can move it forward, if you move it up like 2MM said, but who does that?
If you with the prop location, which is where you should start, then the v drive is where it is. When they used to sell stage one boats they had the strut installed. You didn't need to know where to put the box, it just went on the other end of the shaft.
Now if we move on to the engine, and decide it goes here>>>>+<<<<<<< you have really narrowed down you abilty to change the drive shaft angle.
Strut position and angle---check
v drive location and angle --check
engine location----check

so we are left with engine height, up and down(until the pan hits the floor), and tilt.

This is a MoPar RB. Odds of him getting the engine too low are slim and zero, so that leaves him with how many options to mess with drive shaft angle. Get that ONE remaining part wrong, and its the difference between a u joint that last a summer, or 10.

OR,..........we can build the entire boat around the idea of the perfect u joint angle.

Mitch
03-06-2014, 06:36 PM
Bob if you read post 12 you could have saved the typing cramps :)

WESTERNAERO
03-06-2014, 07:02 PM
Micheal, when you get closer to putting this back together would you like me to make you something like the pic. I'll make a generic drawing, you plug it the numbers and I'll redraw it with your numbers. It might give you a better understanding if you are looking at it on paper. There are a lot more dimensions needed than the pic, that's just an example. Then you and Joe can go over it together and make adjustments where you need them.
35564

gn7
03-06-2014, 08:26 PM
Bob if you read post 12 you could have saved the typing cramps :)

That's my point. The angle on the drive shaft is set in stone, unless he moves something.
What was the point of saying his v drive might lean forward 2*. How would he go about changing that. By relocating the strut or changing the prop shaft angle? By changing the v drive angle to an 8* from a 10? or a 10* from a 12 which ever the case may be?

From the time I started rigging my boat, until I was setting the engine and making plates, I never gave a thought to the drive shaft or u joint angles. Why would I?
It the boat isn't currently rigged, then you just rig it. Period. Worry about the drive shaft and U joints angle when you get there.

Curious. You say the strut isn't set. Is the shaft hole plugged? Or is he willing to fill it if he moves the strut or angle?
If the hole is filled, you know why nobody asks where the hole goes? Yep, it goes where the shaft would hit the boat. Drive shaft angle is pretty much the same.
U joint angle is a little different, but you deal with that when you get there.


OR ..... as I asked, is he considering rigging this boat around a drive shaft angle and that's why the question is being ask.

Mitch
03-06-2014, 09:06 PM
After talking to him he said the strut is in the same location and angle as before no v drive holes in the new stringers he stated the the v drive leanned 2 degrees forward I told told him drill new holes and put it exactly were it was before. Line it back up with the shaft is all you can do .

SnoC653
03-06-2014, 09:12 PM
That's my point. The angle on the drive shaft is set in stone, unless he moves something.
What was the point of saying his v drive might lean forward 2*. How would he go about changing that. By relocating the strut or changing the prop shaft angle? By changing the v drive angle to an 8* from a 10? or a 10* from a 12 which ever the case may be?

From the time I started rigging my boat, until I was setting the engine and making plates, I never gave a thought to the drive shaft or u joint angles. Why would I?
It the boat isn't currently rigged, then you just rig it. Period. Worry about the drive shaft and U joints angle when you get there.

Curious. You say the strut isn't set. Is the shaft hole plugged? Or is he willing to fill it if he moves the strut or angle?
If the hole is filled, you know why nobody asks where the hole goes? Yep, it goes where the shaft would hit the boat. Drive shaft angle is pretty much the same.
U joint angle is a little different, but you deal with that when you get there.


OR ..... as I asked, is he considering rigging this boat around a drive shaft angle and that's why the question is being ask.

He has said before that his strut is a 10* and his Vdrive is a 12*. If he changes to a 7 or 8* strut, that would put his Rewarders pointed almost up at the sky unless he changed Vdrives too.

It always amazes me when someone gets a boat to work and then they take it apart and don't record where everything was at before hand. Hopefully, he measured the angles of the prop shaft and driveshaft before he took it all apart. It is possible that his 10* strut was sitting at 9 or maybe 8.5* depending on how they had it sitting. In one of his other posts he said he had this one taking a good set finally. If so, that is where he should put everything back, unless he is planning on buying some new hardware (strut, v-drive, engine plates, possibly a shaft log).

gn7
03-06-2014, 09:16 PM
You line it up and drill the holes. I would clamp the stringer mounts with C clamps, Stanley One Handed Squeeze clamps, what ever, and check the alignment by pulling the prop shaft and in and out of the coupler. Strut bushing needs to be in pretty good condition. But you are right, the V drive goes back exactly the way it came out. Unless it was wrong to start with, which I doubt.

gn7
03-06-2014, 09:25 PM
He has said before that his strut is a 10* and his Vdrive is a 12*. If he changes to a 7 or 8* strut, that would put his Rewarders pointed almost up at the sky unless he changed Vdrives too.

It always amazes me when someone gets a boat to work and then they take it apart and don't record where everything was at before hand. Hopefully, he measured the angles of the prop shaft and driveshaft before he took it all apart. It is possible that his 10* strut was sitting at 9 or maybe 8.5* depending on how they had it sitting. In one of his other posts he said he had this one taking a good set finally. If so, that is where he should put everything back, unless he is planning on buying some new hardware (strut, v-drive, engine plates, possibly a shaft log).
Unless its a drop thru strut, I doubt the angle was changed much from what it is simply bolted to the hull. Even with a drop thru, If he reinstalls it with the same holes drilled in the strut and mounting angles, its not going to change much.
If he put the strut back in the same place, All the angle figuring is done. Now its just a matter of putting the boat back together.

SnoC653
03-06-2014, 09:35 PM
Unless its a drop thru strut, I doubt the angle was changed much from what it is simply bolted to the hull. Even with a drop thru, If he reinstalls it with the same holes drilled in the strut and mounting angles, its not going to change much.
If he put the strut back in the same place, All the angle figuring is done. Now its just a matter of putting the boat back together.

I agree as long as they didn't do any filling on the bottom of the boat where the strut was located. I know on the Guasti, it had a 9* bronze strut. The bottom of the boat was ground down and when the strut was bolted to it, it sat at 8.25*. When I put the steel strut on it, I intend to have it sit at the same angle with the back of the barrel in the same location. The boat was rigged as a SBC boat before so I'll start back with what worked all those years ago. And before anything got filled, sanded, or touched, every piece of hardware was bolted back into the boat to make sure where it was originally located and at what angles.

ogshotgun
03-09-2014, 03:28 PM
His V drive angle is what the prop shaft angle says it its. No matter where the box gets mounted, the top shaft angle is going to be whatever it is due to the prop shaft ange. He could put a prop shaft in it that 4ft too long and the box is on the deck, the angle of the box is the same.

Where the box falls in the boat is determined by the shaft angle as well. You can move it forward, if you move it up like 2MM said, but who does that?
If you with the prop location, which is where you should start, then the v drive is where it is. When they used to sell stage one boats they had the strut installed. You didn't need to know where to put the box, it just went on the other end of the shaft.
Now if we move on to the engine, and decide it goes here>>>>+<<<<<<< you have really narrowed down you abilty to change the drive shaft angle.
Strut position and angle---check
v drive location and angle --check
engine location----check

so we are left with engine height, up and down(until the pan hits the floor), and tilt.

This is a MoPar RB. Odds of him getting the engine too low are slim and zero, so that leaves him with how many options to mess with drive shaft angle. Get that ONE remaining part wrong, and its the difference between a u joint that last a summer, or 10.

OR,..........we can build the entire boat around the idea of the perfect u joint angle.
i do understand the only thing i could move is the motor up one end its definitely can't go down its a chrysler .. thanks it sounds good to me and i do undress and the vdrive will go on the end of the prop shaft and the top is what it is .

ogshotgun
03-09-2014, 03:33 PM
He has said before that his strut is a 10* and his Vdrive is a 12*. If he changes to a 7 or 8* strut, that would put his Rewarders pointed almost up at the sky unless he changed Vdrives too.

It always amazes me when someone gets a boat to work and then they take it apart and don't record where everything was at before hand. Hopefully, he measured the angles of the prop shaft and driveshaft before he took it all apart. It is possible that his 10* strut was sitting at 9 or maybe 8.5* depending on how they had it sitting. In one of his other posts he said he had this one taking a good set finally. If so, that is where he should put everything back, unless he is planning on buying some new hardware (strut, v-drive, engine plates, possibly a shaft log).

the question was what angle should the u joints be ? , nothing has changed and yes i know exactly where every bolt was located and have templates .

ogshotgun
03-09-2014, 03:34 PM
Micheal, when you get closer to putting this back together would you like me to make you something like the pic. I'll make a generic drawing, you plug it the numbers and I'll redraw it with your numbers. It might give you a better understanding if you are looking at it on paper. There are a lot more dimensions needed than the pic, that's just an example. Then you and Joe can go over it together and make adjustments where you need them.
35564

yes ill get you the dimensions i have and well go from there thank you

ogshotgun
03-09-2014, 03:35 PM
You line it up and drill the holes. I would clamp the stringer mounts with C clamps, Stanley One Handed Squeeze clamps, what ever, and check the alignment by pulling the prop shaft and in and out of the coupler. Strut bushing needs to be in pretty good condition. But you are right, the V drive goes back exactly the way it came out. Unless it was wrong to start with, which I doubt.
yes brand new bushings and that is how it will be set , i was thinking of leveling the motor out a few degrees

ogshotgun
03-09-2014, 03:37 PM
no work on the bottom other than a little cosmetic..

gn7
03-13-2014, 09:14 PM
yes brand new bushings and that is how it will be set , i was thinking of leveling the motor out a few degrees

If your strut is set, then your engine tilt is already cast in stone. You can move the engine up, down, forward or back, but the angle is a done deal.

Its this simple. Take the flywheel end and get it as close to the bottom of the boat that you dare. Put a magnetic bubble protractor, or incline meter/gauge/angle finder on the v drive input companion flange, and read the angle. Now put the angle finder on the flywheel and tilt the engine until they match. Done.

You can't get the engine low enough, and anything higher than necessary only adds angle to the u joints.

Its that easy.

ogshotgun
03-14-2014, 03:16 AM
If your strut is set, then your engine tilt is already cast in stone. You can move the engine up, down, forward or back, but the angle is a done deal.

Its this simple. Take the flywheel end and get it as close to the bottom of the boat that you dare. Put a magnetic bubble protractor, or incline meter/gauge/angle finder on the v drive input companion flange, and read the angle. Now put the angle finder on the flywheel and tilt the engine until they match. Done.

You can't get the engine low enough, and anything higher than necessary only adds angle to the u joints.

Its that easy.

perfect thank you very much