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WESTERNAERO
02-02-2014, 10:42 AM
V-drive pros, explain prop shaft material, diameter, couplers, nickel/shim adjustments and anything else that might educate the masses.

78Southwind
02-03-2014, 02:36 PM
How about Whip Struts? From what I have read some seem to believe they're useless.

gn7
02-03-2014, 02:48 PM
V-drive pros, explain prop shaft material, diameter, couplers, nickel/shim adjustments and anything else that might educate the masses.

Bigger is better, safer and will last longer. The diameter will effect the lift of the boat as well as drag.
material is like hair color on women.
shims/nickles are crutches for strut placement. If you have to shim your shaft, it simply means you put your strut to far forward using Teague's one size fits all formula. Don't shim the shaft, don't move the strut, change the HP until its right, up or down.:happy:
If you have more power than a lawn mower, you use a steel coupler with a minimum of 5 bolts, 6 preferably if you have the room. I don't see the other side of this subject. Its like buying your shaft material off the rack at some metal supply house. They did decades ago, but we've come a little ways since the learning years. Some things are no longer intelligently debatable.

gn7
02-03-2014, 02:48 PM
I think if the shaft, coupler, prop are running true there's no need for one. Bob????

I have found them very useful for tearing out the bottom of the boat where they were attached.

steveo143
02-03-2014, 07:35 PM
The 2 most recomended and used shaft materials are Aquamet 22 and K Monel. In high HP boats I will only use K Monel. In my DiMarco 21 with a projected 2500 HP it will be getting an 11/8" shaft of K Monel. With the source of these materials coming into play because of all the cheap shit coming out of China, you have to be extremely dilligent when sourcing a supplier. At this year's Enduro there were 4 propshaft failures all new shafts and all from the same supplier. 3 were material failures and 1 was caused by a thrown propshaft blade. All were 1" Aquamet 22 shafts. There are only 2 K Monel manufactures and/or distributors in the US and their base material is sourced from China. The GOOD K Monel shafts come from Italy and are made totally in Italy but are very pricy at about 1800.00 for a cruiser length shaft. Cheap really if you are running a Grose prop!!!! Whip struts, forget about it! Drag boats, 1" shaft, K Monel if you love you're prop. BAF, BAH,BFH 11/4" at least K Monel. I had a strut failure in my DiMarco 21' going 100-mph with an 11/8" K Monel shaft that was off of one of Sonny's race boats orignally and after about 15 years running it. It tried real hard to router it's way thru the bottom of the boat but got everything under control and idiled the boat about 2 miles back to the ramp on the Delta. That shaft was only bent from the strut end back and I still use it today to bore propshaft holes in the bottom of new boats and the prop suffered no damage whatsoever!!!!!!! My 2 fingers are tired again, time to move on1

Sharp shooter
02-03-2014, 08:12 PM
I've seen whip struts in K boats. Specifically Revenge race boats. Just sayin...:wink:

Sharp shooter
02-13-2014, 07:07 PM
http://www.buzzzmiller.com/08lbk66.jpg

78Southwind
02-13-2014, 07:18 PM
http://www.buzzzmiller.com/08lbk66.jpg

Interesting. I've had several say good things and several say bad things about Whip Struts.

HotWater
02-16-2014, 04:30 PM
Two different style's of machines and tooling used to cut the keyway's pictured.33601 Is one of them less prone to develop a crack at the end of the cut?

HotWater
02-16-2014, 05:00 PM
I don't like either one of those slots. Both have zero fillet radius. My opinion, they should have .040 minimum fillets. But between the two, I would take the shaft cut with the endmill(bottom) less work hardening with this process. I feel the slots on the prop shafts should be cut with a ball endmill and the key should have the same full radius shape.
Thank you for the response. I've never seen key stock radiused on one side to match a ball endmill slot. Is that common stock? Can you explain to me what fillet radius is and the benefit of it?

HotWater
02-16-2014, 05:25 PM
You would need to make or modify the one side of the key.
See pics for fillet and no fillet.
3361033611


Another issue I have with cutting slots with a keyway saw is, you have a longer runout of the slot. Reducing the cross section thickness over a longer distance of the shaft. Making it weaker for a longer distance.
Got it, thanks!

JusTrouble
02-18-2014, 06:59 AM
Know anyone around Fresno/Clovis that does ball endmill cuts? Im about to need that done on my Belmont when I put a shaft release on it.
Thanks for the explanation and diagrams. Now I understand what Ive been told before.

gn7
02-18-2014, 10:12 AM
I don't know if I would ball mill, but I totally agree with the radius in the bottom cut Westernaero posted.
Look a square stock Craftsman screw driver and you get the idea of what the key slot should look like.

gn7
02-18-2014, 10:46 AM
You use the slot you like, I'll use the one that works for me.
I have seen the full radius slots try to roll the key under a lot less force than a boat prop. Might be the kick ass set up if the key is precision fitted, and the depth is dead nuts on, but most props and shafts don't get the attention to detail that a rocker shaft is afforded. Specially in the pits of a race.

Used a radius bottom end mill, and a craftsman screwdriver shank for close to forty years and not broken a shaft yet. So I think I'll stick with it until I am making at least 2500HP. Then I'll switch to this.:biggrin:
http://www.hondoboatsinc.com/images/stories/prop_for_site2.jpg

HB Vic
02-18-2014, 10:52 AM
On occasion I like to play the slots, but I prefer blackjack. Oh and I prefer no fillet with my slots please :D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HotWater
02-18-2014, 11:07 AM
Know anyone around Fresno/Clovis that does ball endmill cuts? Im about to need that done on my Belmont when I put a shaft release on it.
Thanks for the explanation and diagrams. Now I understand what Ive been told before.

I go to Automotive Machine Specialties (AMS). They are down town Fresno on Broadway by the freeway overpass. They are swamped right now and it might take awhile for them to do it. They are real cool and have boats. If you go there see if they will show you around, all kinds of cool machines and projects in there.
If that does'nt work out there has got to be at least 20 shops or individuals around that can do that work.

HotWater
02-18-2014, 11:12 AM
Don't argue with me Bob. :lmao
Look at the circled area, this is why I say ball endmill and full radius on the key. Notice the pinched pressure area, there already cranks in there, in you can bet on it.
33792

That circled area is the end of the old slot. We cut the shaft and extended the slot. It shows that the key rolled or tilted a little in the slot. Would a ball end mill slot with matching key eliminate that or be worse?

JusTrouble
02-18-2014, 11:23 AM
I go to Automotive Machine Specialties (AMS). They are down town Fresno on Broadway by the freeway overpass. They are swamped right now and it might take awhile for them to do it. They are real cool and have boats. If you go there see if they will show you around, all kinds of cool machines and projects in there.
If that does'nt work out there has got to be at least 20 shops or individuals around that can do that work.

Thanks HotWater. I'm gonna have to have you over to explain the rest of whatever the hell they just said. Is there one of those cute little yellow guys that has his hand swooping backward over his forehead?? I could use one.

gn7
02-18-2014, 11:26 AM
On occasion I like to play the slots, but I prefer blackjack. Oh and I prefer no fillet with my slots please :D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You cruising to get banned from the v drive forums there HB?

gn7
02-18-2014, 11:31 AM
That circled area is the end of the old slot. We cut the shaft and extended the slot. It shows that the key rolled or tilted a little in the slot. Would a ball end mill slot with matching key eliminate that or be worse?

Well, you may have extended the life of the shaft. Like Westernaero said, that slot has seen some stress. Being it WAS the end of the slot makes a lot more sense. Now that its in the middle of the prop, its not nearly as likely to fail there. Not say it can't, but I have never seen a shaft that didn't fail right in front of the prop.

HotWater
02-18-2014, 11:34 AM
Thanks HotWater. I'm gonna have to have you over to explain the rest of whatever the hell they just said. Is there one of those cute little yellow guys that has his hand swooping backward over his forehead?? I could use one.

I'd be happy to come by but you wont learn much from me lol.

HotWater
02-18-2014, 11:41 AM
Well, you may have extended the life of the shaft. Like Westernaero said, that slot has seen some stress. Being it WAS the end of the slot makes a lot more sense. Now that its in the middle of the prop, its not nearly as likely to fail there. Not say it can't, but I have never seen a shaft that didn't fail right in front of the prop.

I hope it last for awhile. Just a pump gas motor twisting it.
Speaking of broken prop shafts. A couple of guys were at the Mendota Slough a couple of weeks back testing and one of them broke his shaft just like you describe. Brand new prop lost in the mud.

HotWater
02-18-2014, 11:44 AM
I'm a visual person, if you haven't noticed already. This might help you see the profiles I'm talking about. This is very close to what GN7 is talking about with the screwdriver. Only difference is more radius to reduce the load at one point.
33802

I like pictures too and I can see what you are talking about. I'm just trying to figure out if that style is more stable or solid in the slot.

gn7
02-18-2014, 11:49 AM
I hope it last for awhile. Just a pump gas motor twisting it.
Speaking of broken prop shafts. A couple of guys were at the Mendota Slough a couple of weeks back testing and one of them broke his shaft just like you describe. Brand new prop lost in the mud.

As much as I don't like the idea of breaking a shaft, the idea of loosing a prop is much worse. We cracked a prop at the season opener in 2012 and by feb had resigned to the idea that the season was toast because we couldn't track down a prop. Luckily Brent from Props West DONATED his time to help use work our way thru getting one into shape, and get us set up with a reasonable working spare as well.

HotWater
02-18-2014, 12:15 PM
What's your thinking that it wouldn't be solid in the slot? Not being augmentative, just making conversation.

Just seems like it would be easier for it to roll over slightly.
Maybe I missed the point of the radiused bottom. Is it just to reduce stress?

gn7
02-18-2014, 01:18 PM
Just seems like it would be easier for it to roll over slightly.
Maybe I missed the point of the radiused bottom. Is it just to reduce stress?

Its harder for a crack to form in a radius, than a sharp edge.

sangerdan
02-21-2014, 10:04 AM
If there is any force applied to the key you have some issues. The square key is a locational item only. If your prop shaft is properly done there should be a milled flat where the set screws contact the shaft so they can be TIGHTENED to the shaft without leaving scars on the shaft that prevent it from coming apart. If you can tighten 4 set screws and 6 pinch bolts on the shaft AND are driving off the keyway you have problems that need to be investigated. 42 years as a tool and die maker /machinist and the round peg where a square slot should be is wrong on so many levels. The runout from a keyway cutter is of no consequence in the over all scheme of things and was the only way they were done in the good old days. Cutting with an end mill was what guys did when they only had one key to do or didn't have access to a key cutter. You have a square keyway on the output of the v-drive and on the prop shaft and prop, why would I worry about the one end on the prop and coupler. The discussion about have many variables exist in your round key would take another paragraph.

gn7
02-21-2014, 07:08 PM
If there is any force applied to the key you have some issues. The square key is a locational item only. If your prop shaft is properly done there should be a milled flat where the set screws contact the shaft so they can be TIGHTENED to the shaft without leaving scars on the shaft that prevent it from coming apart. If you can tighten 4 set screws and 6 pinch bolts on the shaft AND are driving off the keyway you have problems that need to be investigated. 42 years as a tool and die maker /machinist and the round peg where a square slot should be is wrong on so many levels. The runout from a keyway cutter is of no consequence in the over all scheme of things and was the only way they were done in the good old days. Cutting with an end mill was what guys did when they only had one key to do or didn't have access to a key cutter. You have a square keyway on the output of the v-drive and on the prop shaft and prop, why would I worry about the one end on the prop and coupler. The discussion about have many variables exist in your round key would take another paragraph.

I think you are on the wrong end of the shaft here sangerdan, I have never, nor do I know anybody that has broken a shaft at the coupler.
My first boat was a 16ft Stevens with a warmed over 350HP 327 making maybe 375HP. The box side of the shaft had no slot in the Halibrand output shaft, and no slot in the prop shaft and no slot in the coupler. Just 2 set screws on each shaft side, and dimples in the shaft, plus the clamping of a 6 bolt coupler on the FULL diameter of the shaft. I never had a problem, UNTIL the shaft sheared on the prop end.

We are primarily discussing the prop end where shaft is taper and does have a key slot. The shaft is not at full diameter, and the length of the unclamped area is half as long as the couple, and the supported by another shaft affixed to the boat, and to top it off, the shaft is NOT under compression, the taper is literally trying to split the prop from the inside out. HUGE DIFFERENCE!
And before you get started on prop fit to the shaft, I will tell you have never seen a shaft yet that fail IN THE PROP. Its always just in front of the prop where the fit means next to ZERO. But has EVERTHING to with how the slot was cut.
I really don't much care how the slot is machined on the coupler side, so long as its not done by some yahoo in his garage thinking about how his income is made by the job turn over.

sangerdan
02-22-2014, 08:40 AM
Sorry GN I guess I got lost in the drawings, but this is probably worse. Like you said the round key might try to roll if the locking taper wasn't perfect and would have a wedge action. This area would be more critical on the fit and the round key would be a pain in butt to get metal to metal fit. His pic showed a half round key , which would have a +or-and the keyway + or-. These materials are more "gummy" to machine and would be very hard for someone less than a perfectionist to get even a good half-round on a tapered shaft. How would Joe average check fit and location? Keys are keys and dowels are dowels. They mate as well as lions and Bambi. Thanks for clarifying for me GN. Always appreciate your comments and knowledge.

gn7
02-22-2014, 09:11 AM
Sorry GN I guess I got lost in the drawings, but this is probably worse. Like you said the round key might try to roll if the locking taper wasn't perfect and would have a wedge action. This area would be more critical on the fit and the round key would be a pain in butt to get metal to metal fit. His pic showed a half round key , which would have a +or-and the keyway + or-. These materials are more "gummy" to machine and would be very hard for someone less than a perfectionist to get even a good half-round on a tapered shaft. How would Joe average check fit and location? Keys are keys and dowels are dowels. They mate as well as lions and Bambi. Thanks for clarifying for me GN. Always appreciate your comments and knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, the who and the how of cutting a keyway is important on either side. Just that topic has some previous history regarding shaft failing, and failing pre-maturely on the prop end.
I agree the round key would require an extremely well fit key, and that's more than can me expected of the average boater, or even racer in the field changing props, and I don't know how much it adds to the strength of the shaft.
Ideally, there would be no key. But it seems that no matter how well you lap the prop to the shaft, there is a need for the key. I am not sold that the fit if the key itself is the cause of the failures because every shaft I have seen that failed, it did so well ahead of where the key itself ended, and just ahead of where the slot stopped out side the prop barrel. I have yet to see a shaft fail in the barrel.
When the shaft fails very pre-maturely like has happened a few times lately, I tend to think it either the material itself, or as Westernearo mentions, improper machining changing the heat treat locally at the end of the taper, or the keyway.

HotWater
02-22-2014, 09:40 AM
Very good info here, even if we have gotten a little mixed up on which end of the shaft. The pictures I posted are the coupler side. GN7 and I mentioned shaft's breaking at the prop end between the strut and hub. I originally posted the picture to get opinions and knowledge about the type of slots cut. We did'nt have a 5/16 saw cutter so we used a regular end mill bit in a vertical mill. I was told it would be fine but the saw cut slot done in the horizontal mill was less likely to lead to a crack forming at the end of the slot, the ramped up area. Westernaero has a different opinion. I won't try the full rounded bottom slot because I don't have a way to shape a key to match. Other than a bench grinder, which would not create good results. I like his advice about the fillet slot. I can sacrifice a Craftsman screwdriver for key material that will match that slot. Sangerdan mentions milling a flat surface for the set screws to seat against. Is that better than just dimpling the spot where the screws hit? Flat milled area would probably be better if you experiment with spacers and the screws don't always hit the same spot.

sangerdan
02-22-2014, 09:48 AM
If I were going to do anything to improve the prop shaft, it would be to cryo-treat. There is no dimensional change and it re-arranges on a molecular level. In todays world you don't have any idea where the raw material comes from or where it is centerless ground, so the quality is always suspect. If you can find this material made in the U.S. (or maybe Germany or England) and ground here I would pay the premium. Some of the photos of keyways appeared to be the coupler end, have them done by someone you trust your life to. Machining these materials sucks and not every machinist has the skill, tooling, or patience to do it correctly.

sangerdan
02-22-2014, 09:59 AM
A spot face would work for the set screw if you hit the same spot every time and it didn't get to mushrooming out to raise a spot on the shaft. The easiest way is a flat slightly wider than the face of the set screw. No need to mess with end on the set screw i.e. flattening or pointing. When your doing your pre-boating checkup, check these set screws they along with the clamp screws pinching the collar keep the drive off the key. Driving that key will create more stress than a keyway radius.

HotWater
02-22-2014, 10:27 AM
Those little set screws must take a lot of the stress off the key. I pulled a key out from a coupler that did'nt have the set screws in it and the key looked like it had been offset ground from all the load being transferred to it.

gn7
02-22-2014, 10:34 AM
Very good info here, even if we have gotten a little mixed up on which end of the shaft. The pictures I posted are the coupler side. GN7 and I mentioned shaft's breaking at the prop end between the strut and hub. I originally posted the picture to get opinions and knowledge about the type of slots cut. We did'nt have a 5/16 saw cutter so we used a regular end mill bit in a vertical mill. I was told it would be fine but the saw cut slot done in the horizontal mill was less likely to lead to a crack forming at the end of the slot, the ramped up area. Westernaero has a different opinion. I won't try the full rounded bottom slot because I don't have a way to shape a key to match. Other than a bench grinder, which would not create good results. I like his advice about the fillet slot. I can sacrifice a Craftsman screwdriver for key material that will match that slot. Sangerdan mentions milling a flat surface for the set screws to seat against. Is that better than just dimpling the spot where the screws hit? Flat milled area would probably be better if you experiment with spacers and the screws don't always hit the same spot.


Some of the photos of keyways appeared to be the coupler end, have them done by someone you trust your life to. Machining these materials sucks and not every machinist has the skill, tooling, or patience to do it correctly.

After I posted that first response if dawned on me that Hotwater pic was of a shaft re-cut on the coupler end. Who cuts shortens a shaft from the taper end?:bangmyhead::smackhead
So I kind of owe sangerdan an apology. I was kind of one tracked because we started this discussion about premature failures all occurring on the prop end,

I will say this though Sean, Westernaero is right in that that shaft saw some stress in the keyway, and it was looking to fail. This doesn't have to be the due to a improper machining methods, or bad material, it can be due to a keyway that is too long for the coupler. I see it all the time. 4 or 5 bolt coupler with a shaft that has the slot machined for a longer coupler, and the keyway either extends outside the coupler, or is right at the edge. I am devote believer in 6 bolt couplers and no more keyway length that absolutely necessary.

But in the idea of re-cutting a shaft from the prop end. If I had to shorten a shaft more than a couple inches, because of a strut being moved or it came from a different boat, I would cut it on the prop end, if for no other reason than to get rid of what is probably the most stressed area on the shaft.

When Gary H, Teague and the 911 boat broke shafts at the endure this year, and I knew they were all near new shafts, with very little time on them. I considered approaching them about buying them knowing they were useless to them, but more than long enough for my boat. Then I thought better of it. the WHY kept bugging me, and I am not satisfied as to the WHY they broke.

sangerdan is right about one thing. Although shafts seldom break on the coupler end, it is possible. I'd rather break one on the prop end and lose a prop, than break one on the coupler end and have the shaft make an exit passed the rudder. Seen a coupler fail, and the end result was tragic. Its why there is a two piece 4 thru bolt safety collar on my shaft in front of the strut, and two 2 bolt steel safety collars between the coupler and log. If the shaft or coupler fail, at least the shaft stays in the boat.

sangerdan
02-22-2014, 10:58 AM
I hope I can make this understandable because I'm not good at posting pics. If you could make the I.D. of the collar a "D" shape where the flat of the "D" matched the flat on the shaft, metal to metal fit that would be better than the set screws. The set screws and flat on the shaft are as close as is economical to produce. Keys are not meant to transfer large power but are the easiest way to establish the relationship between the shaft and collar so everything mates square and in a specific location. Those set screws are less affective if they are not at 90* to the shaft flat. If that key splits and spins long enough, it will weld the whole works together, friction welding is viable process in the right place.

djunkie
02-22-2014, 11:16 AM
After I posted that first response if dawned on me that Hotwater pic was of a shaft re-cut on the coupler end. Who cuts shortens a shaft from the taper end?:bangmyhead::smackhead
So I kind of owe sangerdan an apology. I was kind of one tracked because we started this discussion about premature failures all occurring on the prop end,

I will say this though Sean, Westernaero is right in that that shaft saw some stress in the keyway, and it was looking to fail. This doesn't have to be the due to a improper machining methods, or bad material, it can be due to a keyway that is too long for the coupler. I see it all the time. 4 or 5 bolt coupler with a shaft that has the slot machined for a longer coupler, and the keyway either extends outside the coupler, or is right at the edge. I am devote believer in 6 bolt couplers and no more keyway length that absolutely necessary.

But in the idea of re-cutting a shaft from the prop end. If I had to shorten a shaft more than a couple inches, because of a strut being moved or it came from a different boat, I would cut it on the prop end, if for no other reason than to get rid of what is probably the most stressed area on the shaft.

When Gary H, Teague and the 911 boat broke shafts at the endure this year, and I knew they were all near new shafts, with very little time on them. I considered approaching them about buying them knowing they were useless to them, but more than long enough for my boat. Then I thought better of it. the WHY kept bugging me, and I am not satisfied as to the WHY they broke.

sangerdan is right about one thing. Although shafts seldom break on the coupler end, it is possible. I'd rather break one on the prop end and lose a prop, than break one on the coupler end and have the shaft make an exit passed the rudder. Seen a coupler fail, and the end result was tragic. Its why there is a two piece 4 thru bolt safety collar on my shaft in front of the strut, and two 2 bolt steel safety collars between the coupler and log. If the shaft or coupler fail, at least the shaft stays in the boat.

So you've got an extra safety collar under the boat in front of the strut? Interesting. I understand the reason for safety just seems like it might be overkill. Probably not in a race boat though. Would think the extra drag from it would make a racer not want that. Please don't call me an idiot. I'm just trying to understand is all.

HotWater
02-22-2014, 11:19 AM
GN7, with a split collar in front of the strut, how does the bushing get water to lube and cool? I can't imagine water being able to pass through the split at high rpm.

gn7
02-22-2014, 12:43 PM
GN7, with a split collar in front of the strut, how does the bushing get water to lube and cool? I can't imagine water being able to pass through the split at high rpm.

Hasn't proven to be a problem to date. The bushings last about the same amount of time as without the collar. We usually change the bushings during the spell between the Nov opener and the next race in March. Its our longest down time and that's when we do stuff like that and blast plates, steering cables, pulley bushings etc.

It larger than a split 2 bolt safety collar. Like I said, its 4 bolts, and it tapers. Its probably about 4X as long as a regular split color. You can just see it in front of the strut in this picture. Its actually rule in GN. Some are just stouter than others.


http://www.hotboat.com/frm/attachment.php?attachmentid=34204

HotWater
02-22-2014, 01:26 PM
I've seen some little sleeves that had a taper to the front that had holes drilled so water could supposedly pass through to the bushing. They only used two little set screws to hold them in place though. Can you get your shaft out without removing the rudder?

sangerdan
02-22-2014, 01:35 PM
This is way outside my expertise. but I've seen a hole in the strut supposedly to let water into the barrel. When you are sitting still the barrel should fill except for trapped air; even if nothing was forced in by forward motion is there enough of a low pressure area at the prop end of the barrel to suck the water out? If so probably not enough to suck a vacuum so it would have to pull water in from somewhere. How much water is needed to do the job? I'll bet all the motions going on in that area are violent enough to make sure fire knowledge if water is flowing through the strut bushing the way we'd like to think impossible.

gn7
02-22-2014, 01:39 PM
I've seen some little sleeves that had a taper to the front that had holes drilled so water could supposedly pass through to the bushing. They only used two little set screws to hold them in place though. Can you get your shaft out without removing the rudder?

Yeah,I think Bergeron may have made those up. I got one that was on a used shaft I bought for the material. It would work better than nothing. But back to back speed runs didn't show ours made any difference and the bushings last so we I leave it. As touchy as the boat is to props and its location on the shaft, I would have thought it might jack with the handling of the boat as well. But Bill says it doesn't. Move the prop back a 1/8th, and sounds off like a little girl.

gn7
02-22-2014, 01:47 PM
This is way outside my expertise. but I've seen a hole in the strut supposedly to let water into the barrel. When you are sitting still the barrel should fill except for trapped air; even if nothing was forced in by forward motion is there enough of a low pressure area at the prop end of the barrel to suck the water out? If so probably not enough to suck a vacuum so it would have to pull water in from somewhere. How much water is needed to do the job? I'll bet all the motions going on in that area are violent enough to make sure fire knowledge if water is flowing through the strut bushing the way we'd like to think impossible.

I personally believe, after putting the collar on it have little effect on bushing life, that it is NOT the pressure in front the feeds the bushing, but the negative behind the strut sucking water in. I don't see the benefit of the little hole in the set screw type collar Hotwater mentioned. I really don't see the need for a hole in the strut.
It takes very little water in the strut bushing to keep it happy. Some people swear it creates a hydraulic wedge like a main bearing. That's pure BS, because the length wise grooves in the strut won't allow a wedge to form.

I have had to run the boat in gear on the trailer before, and just let a garden hose stream on the shaft at the strut, and it was fine. Ran it for 10 15 minutes, no problem. Do it with out the hose, and you lose the bushing in a minute or less. If I had to bet on a magnaflow impellor or a strut bushing without water, I'd bet on the magnaflow out lasting the bushing.

HotWater
02-22-2014, 02:17 PM
This is way outside my expertise. but I've seen a hole in the strut supposedly to let water into the barrel. When you are sitting still the barrel should fill except for trapped air; even if nothing was forced in by forward motion is there enough of a low pressure area at the prop end of the barrel to suck the water out? If so probably not enough to suck a vacuum so it would have to pull water in from somewhere. How much water is needed to do the job? I'll bet all the motions going on in that area are violent enough to make sure fire knowledge if water is flowing through the strut bushing the way we'd like to think impossible.

I've seen a strut like that on a 68 Aquacraft. I thought it was a neat idea but I would assume the part would'nt be as strong.

HotWater
02-22-2014, 02:27 PM
Djunkie brings up a question of extra drag from a collar. I have often wondered if there is aeriation from the strut or if a collar is used would it be worse? GN7 stated no difference in speed testing so maybe it does'nt matter.

gn7
02-22-2014, 11:55 PM
I've seen a strut like that on a 68 Aquacraft. I thought it was a neat idea but I would assume the part would'nt be as strong.

OH THAT HOLE. That hole has nothing to do with the strut bushing. Its actually a pickup for the engine water. Cool idea, saved drilling another hole in the boat before they started putting the pickup in the cav plate. It worked reasonably well for the power the made in the day. Nicson made a slightly different version than the one pictured, where the inlet was on the side of the barrel right where the blade met the barrel. It didn't feed water to the bushing either, but from the outside it may have looked like it did.
There was a cracker running that had the water pickup for the engine in the rudder blade. Series of holes drilled in the side of the blade on a forward facing angle, that connected to a hole drilled vertically down the rudder shaft. Cool setup, but I think they ditched it

34394
3439534396

steveo143
02-23-2014, 12:35 AM
Dan Bell, the owner of the GN boat "Priceless", makes the tapered shaft safety collars with water passages in them. They are made in both left and right hand prop directions.

gn7
02-23-2014, 08:30 AM
Dan Bell, the owner of the GN boat "Priceless", makes the tapered shaft safety collars with water passages in them. They are made in both left and right hand prop directions.

Now that think about it, that is who made the one I have. Never use it. I do have kind of a issue with putting dimples or flats in the middle of the shaft, so its never been on the boat.

HotWater
02-23-2014, 09:52 AM
OH THAT HOLE. That hole has nothing to do with the strut bushing. Its actually a pickup for the engine water. Cool idea, saved drilling another hole in the boat before they started putting the pickup in the cav plate. It worked reasonably well for the power the made in the day. Nicson made a slightly different version than the one pictured, where the inlet was on the side of the barrel right where the blade met the barrel. It didn't feed water to the bushing either, but from the outside it may have looked like it did.
There was a cracker running that had the water pickup for the engine in the rudder blade. Series of holes drilled in the side of the blade on a forward facing angle, that connected to a hole drilled vertically down the rudder shaft. Cool setup, but I think they ditched it

34394
3439534396
Yep you right! Guess I really did'nt pay attention to it. This must have been a race boat since it's got a drop through strut.344073440834409

gn7
02-23-2014, 12:18 PM
Now that's a unique piece. I can't say I have ever seen one like that.

HotWater
02-28-2014, 10:16 AM
Have any of you guy's cut a slot in a shaft using a lathe?

HotWater
02-28-2014, 10:34 AM
I watched a video of an old guy who made a v-clamp that bolted to his tool post and that is what he used for cutting keyways. Seems like it would work pretty good, especially if you only have a lathe.

HotWater
02-28-2014, 11:38 AM
He put a part in a "V" attached to the tool post, put a cutting tool in the spindle and ran the cross slide with the part across the spinning tool? Definitely creative but it's nice to have the free end of the part on a center.
It's not WW2, there's no need to be that clever. Take the shaft to a shop with modern equip and pay to get it done. <<<<<< Not trying to be a dick with this. I'm just saying, is the 50-100 dollars it's going to cost, worth all the effort of making something like that? I've run conventional lathes, mills, screw machines, grinders, threadrollers, etc. Now days I wouldn't even think about it with the technology that's out there in the machine tool world. Unless, you have a lathe and you like to tinker.

No worries, I don't think you're a Dick. I like learning some of the info you provide. I'm just a Hillbilly that likes to tinker with stuff on nights and weekends and the shop's are'nt open then, so it's not about money more like convenience to do stuff when I can. As far as the effort of making something like that, I'm sure I could copy it in about an hour.

gn7
02-28-2014, 07:21 PM
He put a part in a "V" attached to the tool post, put a cutting tool in the spindle and ran the cross slide with the part across the spinning tool? Definitely creative but it's nice to have the free end of the part on a center.
.

Funny, that was my first thought. Then I started thinking maybe he somehow locked the spindle and the end on a center, and used a cutting tool to broach a slot by dragging it over the shaft multiple times.
That's what I get for thinking too much:happy:

gn7
02-28-2014, 07:34 PM
Like an old profiling machine? Those things were brutal.

They had a profiler of sorts, they called a broach, at McCulloch that rough cut the crank forgings. It look like a chain saw and threw chips like one.

ogshotgun
03-17-2014, 09:26 PM
Now that think about it, that is who made the one I have. Never use it. I do have kind of a issue with putting dimples or flats in the middle of the shaft, so its never been on the boat.
do either of you have a picture of this ? or a contact of where to get one ? sounds like what i need

ogshotgun
03-17-2014, 09:27 PM
Dan Bell, the owner of the GN boat "Priceless", makes the tapered shaft safety collars with water passages in them. They are made in both left and right hand prop directions.
do you have a picture of this ? or a contact of where to get one ? sounds like what i need

ogshotgun
03-17-2014, 09:46 PM
Danny Bell (562-577-3673) has long narrow tapered collars that are drilled with a series of tiny holes in a way that deliver water to the strut bushing so they mount close up to the strut barrell. It's really an ingenious design, and are not as blunt as the one pictured in the RexMar pic (sorry!!) and not likely to divert water from the prop. Heath Hiebert uses one on GN369 and it works great. I think Jim Wilkes sells them too.

78Southwind
03-17-2014, 11:41 PM
I was going to run this safety collar in front of the strut what do you guys think?

36316

78Southwind
03-18-2014, 12:28 AM
What's wrong with running a 2 piece in front of the log? I don't understand the want to dig set screws into the side of the shaft.

Nothing wrong with running a 2 piece in front of the log this would be in addition to the 2 piece in front of the log. I guess you could run a 2 piece in front of the strut too if you don't like set screws. What is the problem with set screws?

ogshotgun
03-18-2014, 02:32 AM
I just don't think it's necessary, especially if it's going to be digging into the shaft with screws. And really those set screws aren't going to do anything but slide if something does happen, unless there are flats or spotfaces cut into the side of the shaft. I'm sure you guys don't want to do that.

Kevin i have a ? on mine since the whirl away was installed its buttoned up pretty tight i don't have the room for a 1/2" wide split collar with a 1/4" both sides.. so my only option is to use what is pictured but much nicer its a 1" longer and it has holes drilled in left or right hand to lubricate the bearing it runs a 1/4" in front of the strut..the shop that makes these says to either use a drill and make a slight indention or mill a flat.. please let me know i have no option

gn7
03-18-2014, 08:55 AM
Micheal, didn't you tell me that your prop shaft was rubbing on the shaft log at the top? This means your log is mounted too far forward or its the wrong one. I would be addressing that area when you put it back together, before you drill any holes in your new floors. Bet if you moved it back a bit to stop the rubbing you'd have room for a split collar.

It could just simply be bedded too low.

gn7
03-18-2014, 10:12 AM
Bedded to low? How do you get any lower than the floor. lol
The way he was talking before I think his shaft log was too far forward.

Do come off like I have 'STUPID" written on my forehead???

If the fucking thing is sitting directly on the floor, it can be TOO LOW!!
Mine, and everyone I have set, is bedded in SeaGoin epoxy about 3/16 to 1/4 thick that seals it to the hull.

gn7
03-18-2014, 10:40 AM
Somebody shit in your Cheerios this morning....:happy:
Do you see the "lol" after my comment Bob, settle down.
And by the way, the higher it sits the further forward it needs to go. The further forward it needs to go, the less room he has for a safety collar. Without being there and seeing what's going on, it sounds like it needs to be sucked to the floor and as far back as possible.
Here's a bunch of these so your day gets better. :happy::happy::happy::happy::happy:
If it is rubbing on the top of the log, it could just need to be raised a tad. If its bedded, you can even change the angle it sits at. No different that dry packing a light or flag pole. The Sea Goin under mine doesn't just act as a sealer/gasket, it allows the log angle to be tweeked small amount as well.

ogshotgun
03-18-2014, 12:20 PM
Micheal, didn't you tell me that your prop shaft was rubbing on the shaft log at the top? This means your log is mounted too far forward or its the wrong one. I would be addressing that area when you put it back together, before you drill any holes in your new floors. Bet if you moved it back a bit to stop the rubbing you'd have room for a split collar.

its not the log or the wrong log i had about 4" when i bought the boat. added a real coupler that took a 1.5" more added a whirl away and that was another 2.250" which doesn't leave much left ...

ogshotgun
03-18-2014, 12:24 PM
I understand all that. But he had his floors redone and there are no mounting holes for the log. He is thinking about how things were in his boat and all I'm saying is move it as far back as possible so he can put a safety collar in front of it. He just ordered a brand new aquamet shaft and he thinking about driving set screws in the side it. If it were mine, that shaft log would be getting moved back or find another one that would provide more clearance for a collar.

the spine of the boat is not redone so the shaft log hole and mounting holes and the strut and turning fin all have the existing holes thru the spine the floor and stringers were replaced..

gn7
03-18-2014, 03:50 PM
What type of shaft seal are you using on the log?

HotWater
03-18-2014, 05:19 PM
What type of shaft seal are you using on the log?

X2
I had this same problem of not enough room for a collar with a project boat I worked on. If you have a rubber hose connecting seal housing to log you can cut hose shorter and butt seal housing right up to log. Mine needed even more room and I faced the seal housing down shorting the housing. I could only use one clamp on that side but used a good T bolt clamp and it held fine.

gn7
03-18-2014, 07:36 PM
X2
I had this same problem of not enough room for a collar with a project boat I worked on. If you have a rubber hose connecting seal housing to log you can cut hose shorter and butt seal housing right up to log. Mine needed even more room and I faced the seal housing down shorting the housing. I could only use one clamp on that side but used a good T bolt clamp and it held fine.

When I first built the GN, they had just passed a rule that you had to have a split 2 bolt steel safety collar in front of the log, as well as a safety collar in front of the strut. Personally I think the one in front of the log is near useless because the majority of the logs are not much more than glued to the floor. There is no stress on them, and they are just basically sitting on the floor held by bolts tapped into fiberglass. But everything helps.

I had about a 1/4" between the coupler and the shaft seal using a rope type seal. I got the log set DEAD NUTS to the shaft angle, shortened the hose to the minimum, slightly trim the face of the log, and replaced the rope seal with the single grease, trimmed the face of it slightly, and now there is 2 split collars with about a 1/8" between the seal and coupler ends.

Not only is the front side of the double seal longer, but look at the hose side!!

36331

HotWater
03-18-2014, 08:26 PM
When I first built the GN, they had just passed a rule that you had to have a split 2 bolt steel safety collar in front of the log, as well as a safety collar in front of the strut. Personally I think the one in front of the log is near useless because the majority of the logs are not much more than glued to the floor. There is no stress on them, and they are just basically sitting on the floor held by bolts tapped into fiberglass. But everything helps.

I had about a 1/4" between the coupler and the shaft seal using a rope type seal. I got the log set DEAD NUTS to the shaft angle, shortened the hose to the minimum, slightly trim the face of the log, and replaced the rope seal with the single grease, trimmed the face of it slightly, and now there is 2 split collars with about a 1/8" between the seal and coupler ends.

Not only is the front side of the double seal longer, but look at the hose side!!

36331

Ha yeah, tapped fiberglass. That same project boat had the log attached like that with blind holes tapped into glass, half of which were stripped. Sitting still in the water it was fine but once you started driving it would leak like a sieve. I through drilled it and countersunk the bottom side of the boat, sealed it up and put in some appropriate ss hardware.

HotWater
03-18-2014, 08:34 PM
its not the log or the wrong log i had about 4" when i bought the boat. added a real coupler that took a 1.5" more added a whirl away and that was another 2.250" which doesn't leave much left ...

Does the whirlaway add an actual 2.250"? I've got a Beaver Fab release and it measures 1.500".

gn7
03-18-2014, 09:48 PM
Does the whirlaway add an actual 2.250"? I've got a Beaver Fab release and it measures 1.500".

They are pretty much interchangeable. I would say 1 1/2 is a little closer to the actual number.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzI4WDExMzk=/z/Yd0AAMXQVT9S-Bfo/$_57.JPG

steveo143
03-19-2014, 07:32 AM
Whirlaway adds 1 1/2".

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 01:13 PM
When I first built the GN, they had just passed a rule that you had to have a split 2 bolt steel safety collar in front of the log, as well as a safety collar in front of the strut. Personally I think the one in front of the log is near useless because the majority of the logs are not much more than glued to the floor. There is no stress on them, and they are just basically sitting on the floor held by bolts tapped into fiberglass. But everything helps.

I had about a 1/4" between the coupler and the shaft seal using a rope type seal. I got the log set DEAD NUTS to the shaft angle, shortened the hose to the minimum, slightly trim the face of the log, and replaced the rope seal with the single grease, trimmed the face of it slightly, and now there is 2 split collars with about a 1/8" between the seal and coupler ends.

Not only is the front side of the double seal longer, but look at the hose side!!

36331 aim using the shortest one they have i have shortened the hose some ...can i but it right to the log ? or a little wiggle room ? i almost have enough room to put one in front of the seal right against the coupling

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 01:14 PM
Does the whirlaway add an actual 2.250"? I've got a Beaver Fab release and it measures 1.500".

oops had the dimensions backwards whir away 1.5

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 01:29 PM
They are pretty much interchangeable. I would say 1 1/2 is a little closer to the actual number.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzI4WDExMzk=/z/Yd0AAMXQVT9S-Bfo/$_57.JPG

here is a picture of my log can i cut 1/2" off the end ? and here is the seal also 3635136352363533635436355

HotWater
03-19-2014, 03:24 PM
here is a picture of my log can i cut 1/2" off the end ? and here is the seal also 3635136352363533635436355

Would a 1/4" cut off give you enough room?If you only cut off a 1/4" it will leave a little bit of that rib.

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 04:28 PM
Would a 1/4" cut off give you enough room?If you only cut off a 1/4" it will leave a little bit of that rib. i need about 1/2" plus

gn7
03-19-2014, 05:05 PM
You know what I would do about the shaft log?

Yeah, you'd move it. But if he already has 16 holes in the bottom of his boat, I would be tempted to leave it. I'm not one to turn my keel in a perforated "break on the dotted line"

But I would consider taking all but about an 1/8 of the raised should off the log and seal, get the log dead nuts, and shorten the hose to the minimum, and using T bolt hose clamps.

How much room do you have now with out changing anything?
Are you planning on running a collar in front of the strut too?

HotWater
03-19-2014, 05:15 PM
Is there any meat to trim off the coupler?

78Southwind
03-19-2014, 05:39 PM
I'm not one to turn my keel in a perforated "break on the dotted line"


Damn that made me laugh...:happy:

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 07:00 PM
Yeah, you'd move it. But if he already has 16 holes in the bottom of his boat, I would be tempted to leave it. I'm not one to turn my keel in a perforated "break on the dotted line"

But I would consider taking all but about an 1/8 of the raised should off the log and seal, get the log dead nuts, and shorten the hose to the minimum, and using T bolt hose clamps.

How much room do you have now with out changing anything?
Are you planning on running a collar in front of the strut too?

sounds good i have t bolt clamps and a silicone hose by taking off 3/8" off the log and 1/8" off the seal and having the prop shaft 1/4" longer than before will give me about what i need... before i had 1/8" total

can i run the seal piece right against the log ? or leave a 1/16" and its dead center of the shaft now.. that would give 1/2" alone

it looks like i just gained a 1" for a 5/8" safety collar correct?

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 07:02 PM
This is exactly what I would do. Plus tighten the safety collar right next to the coupler. I don't see any reason why they can't be touching or almost touching.
perfect and by shortening the hose i have over 1" by doing all that

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 07:03 PM
Is there any meat to trim off the coupler?
its a Casale coupler he says don't touch it lol find another way but don't go there lol thats from Andy

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 07:05 PM
You know what I would do about the shaft log?

you would mill a custom billet piece out of some exotic material with it being a 1' shorter and bad ass ! right ?
ill send you mine you can replace with a custom for charity lmao

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 07:05 PM
Is that why you're single....:lmao

your right 1" from the knee lmao

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 07:10 PM
That was going to be answer, yes.:wink:
go right ahead ill send you this one , you can mill your name it too.

ogshotgun
03-19-2014, 10:40 PM
You know what work perfect for your deal Micheal? A fabricated log with a stainless plate base and a tube cut on a long angle and welded to the plate. That would be something you could make yourself and have it welded if you're not experienced with welding. It would allow you to use the same mounting holes and you could slide the whole seal and tube back for clearance. You'll have some extra room between the tube and base to move thing back.
yes or cut a 1/2" off my log and be done lol

ogshotgun
03-20-2014, 12:43 AM
Just throwing out some other ideas for you.
good idea pretty easy die grinder drill press tig weld

gn7
03-20-2014, 12:56 AM
its a Casale coupler he says don't touch it lol find another way but don't go there lol thats from Andy

You need to keep the coupler about a 1/16 or so off the v drive output housing, but the safety collar can be as close as you car to make it. It you don't want them to touch, fine. But I a couple thousands with a feeler gauge is all you need. Just don't let it touch the v drive housing or the shaft log seal. It will cook the seal in a heart beat.
Also. McMaster Carr sells SS two bolt safety collars that are only 1/2 wide if that helps.

ogshotgun
03-20-2014, 03:41 PM
You need to keep the coupler about a 1/16 or so off the v drive output housing, but the safety collar can be as close as you car to make it. It you don't want them to touch, fine. But I a couple thousands with a feeler gauge is all you need. Just don't let it touch the v drive housing or the shaft log seal. It will cook the seal in a heart beat.
Also. McMaster Carr sells SS two bolt safety collars that are only 1/2 wide if that helps.
thanks sounds good ill keep you posted think i found enough room to get the CE .625" safety collar in there

ogshotgun
03-21-2014, 12:23 PM
This is how they machined my new Aquamet 22 shaft3642536426

ogshotgun
03-21-2014, 03:05 PM
Looks nice. Make sure the key has corner radius' to match the fillets. Looks like that's maybe a .030? Let your phone focus before hitting the button next time.

36453like this

ptc
03-21-2014, 03:16 PM
I have a few of the MCmaster Carr safety collars if you need them. in stainless and chrome too! Im not gonna use them.

ogshotgun
03-21-2014, 04:18 PM
I have a few of the MCmaster Carr safety collars if you need them. in stainless and chrome too! Im not gonna use them.
i actually do need two for my rudder . i don't like whats there now

gn7
03-21-2014, 05:10 PM
36453like this

Did you get that shaft from Marine Machine? Did they supply you with that piece of key?

If the seat in shaft has a radius approaching the one on that key, those guys have their shit together.

HotWater
03-21-2014, 06:00 PM
This is how they machined my new Aquamet 22 shaft3642536426

Look's nice! How do they cut a constant depth keyway in a tapered part of the shaft? Do they use a keyway cutter in a vertical mill cutting from the side with the shaft mounted at the appropriate angle?

ogshotgun
03-21-2014, 06:42 PM
Did you get that shaft from Marine Machine? Did they supply you with that piece of key?

If the seat in shaft has a radius approaching the one on that key, those guys have their shit together.

yes camee from machine machine the radius in the keyway is slightly less than the keyway, aim glad you like it all of your input made the decision thanks

ogshotgun
03-21-2014, 06:44 PM
Keyway cutter, programmed tool path at the same angle of the taper.

thanks for all the help making my decision between you and bob it made life simple i get stuck with too many choices , THANKS AGAIN

steveo143
04-06-2014, 06:25 PM
GN 369 lost an A 22 shaft and new prop in Sat. race at Parker. I was told it had 6 races on it. I wouldn't run an A 22 prop shaft if was free. K Monel from Italy will be my shaft of choice from now on.

HB Vic
04-06-2014, 06:27 PM
GN 369 lost an A 22 shaft and new prop in Sat. race at Parker. I was told it had 6 races on it. I wouldn't run an A 22 prop shaft if was free. K Monel from Italy will be my shaft of choice from now on.

I heard him lose it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ogshotgun
04-06-2014, 06:59 PM
GN 369 lost an A 22 shaft and new prop in Sat. race at Parker. I was told it had 6 races on it. I wouldn't run an A 22 prop shaft if was free. K Monel from Italy will be my shaft of choice from now on.

my friend snapped a kmonel 500 shaft from glenwood marine in 15 minutes of run time...its not the material thats the problem its the machine process thats causing the failures
Problem Child TFH uses aqua met 22 and there about 9000 hp and 265 plus mph, no broken shafts there

ogshotgun
04-06-2014, 07:03 PM
GN 369 lost an A 22 shaft and new prop in Sat. race at Parker. I was told it had 6 races on it. I wouldn't run an A 22 prop shaft if was free. K Monel from Italy will be my shaft of choice from now on.

although the shaft was the end result of failure , what was the root cause of failure ? thats where you should look at, not at the result..

ogshotgun
04-06-2014, 07:12 PM
Don't argue with me Bob. :lmao
Look at the circled area, this is why I say ball endmill and full radius on the key. Notice the pinched pressure area, there already cranks in there, in you can bet on it.
33792

this looks like what Casale did to mine after they shortened the shaft for the whirlawy , they recut the keyway and it looks exactly like that picture , i complained so much about it and the terrible re machine work they took 500 off the bill to replace the shaft

gn7
04-06-2014, 07:32 PM
my friend snapped a kmonel 500 shaft from glenwood marine in 15 minutes of run time...its not the material thats the problem its the machine process thats causing the failures
Problem Child TFH uses aqua met 22 and there about 9000 hp and 265 plus mph, no broken shafts there

You CANNOT compare a TFH shaft setup to the average flat bottom shaft. Its like comparing the tires on Forces funny to your street tires. For starters, they use two piece prop shafts, and dispose of the rear section after X number of runs. Some of them don't have keyed props either.

ogshotgun
04-06-2014, 10:11 PM
You CANNOT compare a TFH shaft setup to the average flat bottom shaft. Its like comparing the tires on Forces funny to your street tires. For starters, they use two piece prop shafts, and dispose of the rear section after X number of runs. Some of them don't have keyed props either.

john force runs 33" tall slicks with a 18.5" foot print ... my street car i run 31" tall slicks with a 14" contact path ,, pretty close , but aim saying is the guy that commented that he wouldn't take one if it was free.. he would buy the KMONEL 500 for 1500 bucks i guess his boat uses a shaft thats 187.50 inches long because kmonel is 8.00 a inch about, i was making a point that its not the material its the machine work where they fail usually , was using the TFH as a example .. he claims Aquamet is shit.. but it will take a 9000 hp motor and survive..he ran a Kmonel 500 in TFH and it broke out of the hole

, and also he had a shaft that used by a racer that claimed 6 races on it and he broke it.. well the racer sold it for a reason

ogshotgun
04-06-2014, 10:15 PM
You CANNOT compare a TFH shaft setup to the average flat bottom shaft. Its like comparing the tires on Forces funny to your street tires. For starters, they use two piece prop shafts, and dispose of the rear section after X number of runs. Some of them don't have keyed props either.

just checked the life of a shaft in a TFH according to the Team owner both prop shafts last a whole season unless a mechanical failure by other parts causes problems

gn7
04-06-2014, 10:26 PM
Did you ask him if they look like this?
And the if the shafts are 2 pieces?
Things have changed a little since going to the dual props, but I don't know if I would trust any rear shaft for an entire season.

MAYBE if it was keyless. MAYBE

http://www.hondoboatsinc.com/images/stories/shaftp.jpg

ogshotgun
04-06-2014, 10:29 PM
Did you ask him if they look like this?
And the if the shafts are 2 pieces?
Things have changed a little since going to the dual props, but I don't know if I would trust any rear shaft for an entire season.

MAYBE if it was keyless.

http://www.hondoboatsinc.com/images/stories/shaftp.jpg

from what i seen is the shaft has splines on one end going direct into a coupler on the W drive and the prop end is just a taper , but they do use a huge impact to torque the prop nut to 250 plus pounds and there is no keyway

ogshotgun
04-06-2014, 10:30 PM
Did you ask him if they look like this?
And the if the shafts are 2 pieces?
Things have changed a little since going to the dual props, but I don't know if I would trust any rear shaft for an entire season.

MAYBE if it was keyless.

http://www.hondoboatsinc.com/images/stories/shaftp.jpg

i don't know what you call the one in the picture but thats definitely the way to go i believe

ogshotgun
04-06-2014, 10:32 PM
i don't know what you call the one in the picture but thats definitely the way to go i believe

also after a pass that prop is a real mfer to get broke loose, they have a type of slide hammer to bang it off with and its a bi..ch

gn7
04-06-2014, 10:38 PM
When you think about it, how far does the shaft have to move the boat. How many revolutions does it even spin. A top fuel dragster spins less 550 times light to light IN A 1/4 MILE!! The stuff is under a tremendous strain, but not for very long.

A full season of drag racing won't get a full lap at the Parker enduro

ogshotgun
04-06-2014, 11:38 PM
When you think about it, how far does the shaft have to move the boat. How many revolutions does it even spin. A top fuel dragster spins less 550 times light to light IN A 1/4 MILE!! The stuff is under a tremendous strain, but not for very long.

A full season of drag racing won't get a full lap at the Parker enduro

your right about that ...
than again the very best of the best manufactures run all types of endurance racing , parts fail thats all there is, most material fails are machining and over stressed..

gn7
04-07-2014, 10:45 AM
That would be a strong MOFO.. So where can I find a prop to run on my CRUISER that has that profile? :D

Hondo boats sell the shafts and props.

gn7
04-07-2014, 10:58 AM
X'2... Plus a drag boat isn't constantly coming out of the water at WOT releasing the torsion and hammering the shaft when it makes contact with the water again.

Just the hull lifting and falling, and heavy chop, without the boat coming out of the water will vary the load on the shaft

ogshotgun
04-07-2014, 01:51 PM
I thought we've already been though this? BOTH of these materials are tough, Nickel 500 being the stronger of the two, if I remember the testing values correctly. There are other factors that are causing these failures.
we did and some one wanted to say that the Aquamet22 he wouldn't use it if it was free absolute junk so he stirred the stink pot again

gn7
04-08-2014, 11:53 AM
GN 369 lost an A 22 shaft and new prop in Sat. race at Parker. I was told it had 6 races on it. I wouldn't run an A 22 prop shaft if was free. K Monel from Italy will be my shaft of choice from now on.


we did and some one wanted to say that the Aquamet22 he wouldn't use it if it was free absolute junk so he stirred the stink pot again

I would say I wouldn't buy a A22 shaft from a particular supplier, or put my #1 prop on a A22 shaft that was in a boat I bought. More than likely, I would use it for a transom bar.

ogshotgun
04-08-2014, 12:28 PM
I would say I wouldn't buy a A22 shaft from a particular supplier, or put my #1 prop on a A22 shaft that was in a boat I bought. More than likely, I would use it for a transom bar.

i agree marine machine has there act together, glenwood marine machines are older than anyone on this forum ..

gn7
04-08-2014, 06:41 PM
i agree marine machine has there act together, glenwood marine machines are older than anyone on this forum ..

I have no problem with the age of the machines at Glenwood. The shaft that was in my boat was a K Monel shaft from Glenwod and was in it for 5 years when I bought it. I reversed the rotation of the shaft by driving the boat off the flywheel{previous owner off the snout). I ran it for 3 hears like that, then reversed it back to off the snout, and ran it another 3 years before I decided I was pushing my luck and replaced it with a K Monel from Glenwod, and I STILL use the old shaft in the enduro (5 to date). I say its doing pretty well compared to some shafts I have seen.

The K Monel shaft Glenwood cut for Rudy's Allison boat won two Salton Sea 500, the Lake Berryessa 6 hr, and ran a couple Parker 9 hrs, transmitting 1500 lbs of torque the entire time, moving a whaling ship 85-90 AVERAGE, and the shaft is still in the boat to this day.

ogshotgun
04-08-2014, 11:49 PM
I have no problem with the age of the machines at Glenwood. The shaft that was in my boat was a K Monel shaft from Glenwod and was in it for 5 years when I bought it. I reversed the rotation of the shaft by driving the boat off the flywheel{previous owner off the snout). I ran it for 3 hears like that, then reversed it back to off the snout, and ran it another 3 years before I decided I was pushing my luck and replaced it with a K Monel from Glenwod, and I STILL use the old shaft in the enduro (5 to date). I say its doing pretty well compared to some shafts I have seen.

The K Monel shaft Glenwood cut for Rudy's Allison boat won two Salton Sea 500, the Lake Berryessa 6 hr, and ran a couple Parker 9 hrs, transmitting 1500 lbs of torque the entire time, moving a whaling ship 85-90 AVERAGE, and the shaft is still in the boat to this day.

than all the previous talk about having the the surface to tip speed constant at all diameters doesn't mean that much or how the keyway is cut either

they broach cut the keyway , and the prop shaft taper is cut on a old engine lathe, than put into a chucker to have the threads cut.. look on the shelf outside the door at the rack of shafts .. almost everyone has both ends cut and one trashed with red dyekem on it. they charge a 75.00 tool charge for aqua met and kmonel because it tears up there tools ... hmmm.

gn7
04-09-2014, 08:15 AM
I don't give a fuck if its if its turned a pre WWI lath, its the guy standing at it. What fuck do I care what the end of it looks like on the rack. I helped Bob load a shipment of material on to those racks years ago. You think the shit from the mill had polished ends???? Look like it had been cut off with giant bolt cutters. So the fuck what!!!

BTW, I watched Bob make my shaft, and it never went into some freek'n chucker for the threads,

HB Vic
04-09-2014, 09:01 AM
I don't give a fuck if its if its turned a pre WWI lath, its the guy standing at it. What fuck do I care what the end of it looks like on the rack. I helped Bob load a shipment of material on to those racks years ago. You think the shit from the mill had polished ends???? Look like it had been cut off with giant bolt cutters. So the fuck what!!!

BTW, I watched Bob make my shaft, and it never went into some freek'n chucker for the threads,

Coffee stat! Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 10:46 AM
I don't give a fuck if its if its turned a pre WWI lath, its the guy standing at it. What fuck do I care what the end of it looks like on the rack. I helped Bob load a shipment of material on to those racks years ago. You think the shit from the mill had polished ends???? Look like it had been cut off with giant bolt cutters. So the fuck what!!!

BTW, I watched Bob make my shaft, and it never went into some freek'n chucker for the threads,

well hate to tell you BOB is dead and there guy STEVE is clueless i watched him try to shorten my rudder stuffing box before he trashed it and Vicky was nice enough to sell me a replacement for 1/2 price since she has no control of the machines. and i watched the latin guy in the shop cut the taper on a shaft than move it to a chucker and cut the end and the threads , than go to a broaching tool and cut the keyway. I do Admit BOB was the man if he made one with a rock aim sure it would be fine , but BOB is gone!

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 10:53 AM
Good morning Bob...:D
Oh, I called Hondo about the polygonal shafts and props...

so it looks like that Bob has ruled out that the machine used isn't the problem its the guy running the machine
A WW1 lathe will make the same shaft a brand new CNC lathe can.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 11:14 AM
here is my rudder stuffing box that Glenwood marine shortened for me after i bought it for 82.50, vicky charged 15 bucks to cut it off377463774737748, the machinists walked to me and said uuummmm thats some exotic material you have there , i said idk just bought it up front looks like cast brass or bronze, he rolled his eyes and said its very exotic,and handed me the destroyed part i just bought, i walked back to the front and Vicky said when machining a customers part they have supplied they have no guarantee and it being a very exotic material shit happens , than Steve added in i break at least 10 cutting tools a day working on this highly exotic material, so she offered to sell me one for 42.00 bucks and no tax. I came home and cut it off with a hacksaw in about two minutes and filed the end flat..it a a worn out hack saw blade and a shitty old file , it had no problems cutting this soft material with..

in short there machinist charged 15 bucks to destroy a 80 dollar part to sell another for 40 ....lesson learned at glenwood.

and aim going to trust them making a prop shaft out of actual exotic material when they struggle with brass and bronze????

gn7
04-09-2014, 11:20 AM
well hate to tell you BOB is dead!

You know, I try to help you where ever I can, and if I remember correctly, I was the one that guided you Marine Machine, but sometimes you are simply way too fucking stupid to bother with.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 11:52 AM
You know, I try to help you where ever I can, and if I remember correctly, I was the one that guided you Marine Machine, but sometimes you are simply way too fucking stupid to bother with.

i appreciate your help, i was making a point in the beginning both you and kevin were all about the machine and the surface speed to tip being constant , than in the end you say it doesn't fn matter at all.. make up your mind..does the machine make any difference or not ? a old ww1 lathe has about 6 speeds and maybe two feed speeds, the reason why they break at least 10 cutting tools a day and trash 50% of the parts, this is all after BOB has passed away, and i found Marine machine on my own gave Kevin the web site to make sure there up to the standards needed and he agreed,

marine machine vs glenwood

is like a rock vs a bazooka

also iam not fucking STUPID , stupid people just listen to all the BS and never ask a question. intelligent people ask questions to gain knowledge.. i ask a lot of questions.

HB Vic
04-09-2014, 11:53 AM
Well this thread is going nicely.

Lets please keep the name calling to a minimum. While I understand the need to pop off on occasion, please try to make more general statements. For example: Not all machinists are brain surgeons. My monel is better than your monel. My WWII lathe will machine better than your CNC lathe. Even my shaft is harder than your shaft is ok. LOL

But lets try to keep pet references out of the equation.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 11:55 AM
You know, I try to help you where ever I can, and if I remember correctly, I was the one that guided you Marine Machine, but sometimes you are simply way too fucking stupid to bother with.

if you want to use my quote use the whole thing

"well hate to tell you BOB is dead and there guy STEVE is clueless i watched him try to shorten my rudder stuffing box before he trashed it and Vicky was nice enough to sell me a replacement for 1/2 price since she has no control of the machines. and i watched the latin guy in the shop cut the taper on a shaft than move it to a chucker and cut the end and the threads , than go to a broaching tool and cut the keyway. I do Admit BOB was the man if he made one with a rock aim sure it would be fine , but BOB is gone!"

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 11:58 AM
Well this thread is going nicely.

Lets please keep the name calling to a minimum. While I understand the need to pop off on occasion, please try to make more general statements. For example: Not all machinists are brain surgeons. My monel is better than your monel. My WWII lathe will machine better than your CNC lathe. Even my shaft is harder than your shaft is ok. LOL

But lets try to keep pet references out of the equation.

i wasn't calling any names and if some one is clueless well thats my opinion, but did not use any bad words

gn7
04-09-2014, 12:06 PM
i appreciate your help, i was making a point in the beginning both you and kevin were all about the machine and the surface speed to tip being constant , than in the end you say it doesn't fn matter at all.. make up your mind..does the machine make any difference or not ? a old ww1 lathe has about 6 speeds and maybe two feed speeds, the reason why they break at least 10 cutting tools a day and trash 50% of the parts, this is all after BOB has passed away, and i found Marine machine on my own gave Kevin the web site to make sure there up to the standards needed and he agreed,

marine machine vs glenwood

is like a rock vs a bazooka

also iam not fucking STUPID , stupid people just listen to all the BS and never ask a question. intelligent people ask questions to gain knowledge.. i ask a lot of questions.

Think about this rocket scientist. Did I send you to Glenwood for your shaft, EVEN KNOWING full well that's where I got mine, and knowing full well they made ever single shaft Rudy ever used in a marathon boat, even after Rudy and Andy Casale (who will make a shaft if you ask VERY nicely) both told me to go to Glenwood.

Now stick that genius brain in gear, and ask your self REAL SLOW and CLEARLY, why did Bob tell to get the shaft at MM&M? Did I EVER suggest you get the shaft at Glenwood? WHY THE FUCK NOT????

Now I have no intention of running a Q22 shaft, from MM&M or Burgeron. If I need a new shaft, it will most likely be another K Monel, but not from Glenwood. I MIGHT purchase the material there to stream line matters. But I will take it somewhere.
I would have told you do the same thing, but seriously, I don't care to risk burning bridges with every Tom, Dick and Harry that needs a shaft. And your last few posts definitely placed you in the category. I don't suffer fools lightly, and many people I know don't either. I don't need someone calling me saying WTF were you thinking sending that guy here.
Specially the comment about Bob being dead. Might as well told me Rudy and my dad were as well.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 12:16 PM
so i asked Glenwood to send me a picture of how they cut the taper on there prop shafts ...what i got back is this please follow along

Hello there Thanks for inquiring about our prop shafts , i will try to answer your question, we used this set up for many years see attached photo37750
than in the last ten years we upgraded to the modern set up in the next photo37751 Hope this answers your questions
Regards Vicky

notice the date on the brochure 1944

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 12:19 PM
Think about this rocket scientist. Did I send you to Glenwood for your shaft, EVEN KNOWING full well that's where I got mine, and knowing full well they made ever single shaft Rudy ever used in a marathon boat, even after Rudy and Andy Casale (who will make a shaft if you ask VERY nicely) both told me to go to Glenwood.

Now stick that genius brain in gear, and ask your self REAL SLOW and CLEARLY, why did Bob tell to get the shaft at MM&M? Did I EVER suggest you get the shaft at Glenwood? WHY THE FUCK NOT????

Now I have no intention of running a Q22 shaft, from MM&M or Burgeron. If I need a new shaft, it will most likely be another K Monel, but not from Glenwood. I MIGHT purchase the material there to stream line matters. But I will take it somewhere.
I would have told you do the same thing, but seriously, I don't care to risk burning bridges with every Tom, Dick and Harry that needs a shaft. And your last few posts definitely placed you in the category. I don't suffer fools lightly, and many people I know don't either. I don't need someone calling me saying WTF were you thinking sending that guy here.
Specially the comment about Bob being dead. Might as well told me Rudy and my dad were as well.

didn't know if you knew Bob has died . many people did not Know he's not around any more..it was a fyi for you.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 12:25 PM
Micheal,
You got your new shaft, you seem to be happy with it, why are you continuing with the rant. Why don't you just thank Bob for recommending the supplier and put your boat together.

i have my shaft and it will work fine, some guy came on here bad mouthing the Aquamet 22 and than bob started in saying his 99 cents worth and its been going since, now he says a ww1 lathe will produce the same shaft as a new high end cnc lathe will.. now aim going out of my way to prove him wrong..and he never mentioned Marine Machine i found them on my own...

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 12:35 PM
Bob wasn't talking about machines, he was talking about the operator of the machine.


i understand that .. so you agree a WW1 lathe will produce the same part as a brand new CNC will? with the same person running it that is?

one machine is over 70 years old it will produce the exact same quality of part as a new machine, as long as the operator is up to par?
I don't think so.

SnoC653
04-09-2014, 12:42 PM
i have my shaft and it will work fine, some guy came on here bad mouthing the Aquamet 22 and than bob started in saying his 99 cents worth and its been going since, now he says a ww1 lathe will produce the same shaft as a new high end cnc lathe will.. now aim going out of my way to prove him wrong..and he never mentioned Marine Machine i found them on my own...

News flash, long before there were CNC machines people were making precision parts. My grandfather was a gear maker, and was one of the finest in the country according to the people that sought him out long after he retired. When computers first came on the scene they used to get the best engineers they could find to walk them through the process so they could get the machine to do it the same way. I remember they called him out of retirement to help them make a gear for a giant shovel (used at strip mines, looked like a house on a turn table). My grandfather said they had programming engineers watching everything he did, and how he bets that somewhere there is a computer that stops and scratches it's imaginary nose before moving to the next step.

The point is, the old equipment is just as capable as the new fancy stuff with the right operator. The new stuff is faster and easier to duplicate the same part over and over. And the new stuff doesn't require the same level of skill from the operator, just from the programmer. The new stuff also repeats the same mistakes over and over if they were programmed in, or something becomes out of tolerance.

You'd be amazed at how many people can't do a simple task like turn a brake rotor because they can't grasp the concept of to big a cut or a dull bit. And when you apply it to turning a exotic metal the number of people that can't goes up drastically. And there is more to metal work than just how it looks when it is done, so I'll take GN7's advice when he says this shop knows what they are doing. I also trust people that work with these metals to school us. I know the precision that Westernaero has to meet on aircraft as well as seeing some of the great stuff he is turning out. This site is fortunate to have the people with real world experience and top notch skills.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 12:53 PM
I think you're missing the point. Regardless of the equipment, the person making the shit needs to know his or her shit. That's all that that's been or being said here.

didn't miss anything i agree the operator of the machine is where it begins , but i also do know that a process used 50 years ago was fine 50 years ago but times have changed and motors have changed since 1944 and materials have changed and more exotics available today than in 1944, i do remember you saying to machine this material you need a constant surface to cutter speed at all times so it must be done on a cnc machine.
the tool used at the other shop is nothing more than a pencil sharpener basically, i can not see the same quality coming off the two different machines . in fact my old shaft from the old supplier has chatter marks on the taper running length wise from the pencil sharpener tooling thats being used

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 01:09 PM
SFM is ultra critical for these material, yes I did tell you and everyone that, and it is. If you can find a supplier that has the equipment to maintain that constant SFM that's where I would be going.
However if somebody is dead set on going to someone that only has conventional turning capabilities then the SFM on the taper needs to be run to the largest diameter. Also in my opinion that box tool in the pics you put up is absolutely the worst way to cut a taper because of the heat it generates, a taper attachment with a single point tool and a large radius would be the way to go. And only removing .010 -.015 a side max per pass.
i agree and the pencil sharpener tool was a upgrade 10 years ago! its what they use today.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 01:23 PM
A box tool is completely acceptable for materials that don't work harden easily.
its what is used on Kmonel and Aquamet 19, they don't sell 22

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 01:27 PM
A box tool is completely acceptable for materials that don't work harden easily.

call me i have a quick question and don't need everyones opinions and bs on how to do it, i trust you and bob, and he's mad.

gn7
04-09-2014, 01:31 PM
Sorry Sno, I can't agree with this 100%.
But a good machinist know a whole hell of a lot more than just the machine.

I agree. But they were making some pretty high power boats, specially when they were driving all the power of a TFH thru single shaft, and
with shafts machined in full manual machines long before CNC.

CNCs are no different than computers, garbage in, garbage out. Like the man leaning against a WWI lathe, he can make it the best that is possible with the machine, or make the part useless. A programmer can fuck a piece material just a easy as yahoo on a 50 year old Logan.

I look at my AFR CNC ported heads, and my Canfields hand ported by Steelcomp that have a smaller port, yet flow more across the board than my AFRs, and I say, "how the fuck did he do that." But can he reproduce the heads as quickly as a CNC. Not even close. And he used my heads to develop a CNC program. So they were on his bench for a looooong time. I was the perfect candidate because I didn't need the heads.
And I have heads that are CNC's that flow considerably less than my AFRs. Its all in the program.

In all this, nobody has even mention the tooling. It can be as important as the machine, and the operator. Hone a cylinder with the wrong hone for rings, and the bore is useless, I don't care what program was used to run the hone speed and travel.
If given the choice, I will take the CNC in the RIGHT HANDS!!

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 01:33 PM
Bob's mad cause you're making him mad....:asshole2:

thats what i do , and bobs made because he's bob

SnoC653
04-09-2014, 01:39 PM
Sorry Sno, I can't agree with this 100%.
But a good machinist know a whole hell of a lot more than just the machine.

It takes a lot more old equipment to do what one modern machine can do today, but the basic shaping of metal hasn't changed. You can still only remove material in so many ways. Yes there are new tools to use and a lot more precise tools to use. Yes there are new designs that the old machines don't have the dexterity to accomplish, but it wasn't needed back in the day or else some engineer would have figured out how to do it with what they had back then.

And don't think I'm against the new machines. I think the advances in machine work is fantastic. I think the loss of so many great machinists and their replacements with operators is a tragic shame. I love talking to old machinists and hearing the passion for what they do in their voices.

steveo143
04-09-2014, 01:51 PM
Casale will machine propshafts if you supply the material. I believe they do all of Rankin's shafts.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 01:58 PM
Casale will machine propshafts if you supply the material. I believe they do all of Rankin's shafts.


you can not buy the material for the price Marine machine will sell you a complete shaft for

SFV2RVR
04-09-2014, 01:59 PM
Casale will machine propshafts if you supply the material. I believe they do all of Rankin's shafts.

That's not sayin much. His shit breaks too! This is from SS-80 from the long beach race.
37753

Could've been part of the problem right here!
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/10/ne2aquze.jpg

gn7
04-09-2014, 02:39 PM
thats what i do , and bobs made because he's bob

I not mad. Little dumb founded. But that happens to me almost everyday at work with the assclowns I have to deal with most times.

Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it.
Henry Ford

gn7
04-09-2014, 02:41 PM
That's not sayin much. His shit breaks too! This is from SS-80 from the long beach race.


Could've been part of the problem right here!

There again, posting with out thinking.
Any idea why that boat might be more prone to snapping a shaft?
Aside from the non obvious reason that could have snapped, there is some thought that the prop pitch an ear to cause that.
Ever ask Rankin, Fitz or Buckles how many props they go thru a year and why?

HB Vic
04-09-2014, 02:46 PM
I not mad. Little dumb founded. But that happens to me almost everyday at work with the assclowns I have to deal with most times.

Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it.
Henry Ford

Did you just quote Henry Ford? :wink:

What I find most prevalent, around places like this anyway, is many people disengage their fingers from their brains :D

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 02:52 PM
There again, posting with out thinking.
Any idea why that boat might be more prone to snapping a shaft?
Aside from the non obvious reason that could have snapped, there is some thought that the prop pitch an ear to cause that.
Ever ask Rankin, Fitz or Buckles how many props they go thru a year and why?

it looks like i need a under water metal detector and i can go into the missing prop business lol> with three to five every race and some very high dollar props being tossed it might make for a lucrative weekend of diving

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 02:56 PM
what it seems like is most people look at the broken part thats left and assume it failed, did something else fail first and cause that failure ? a old man told me once to look at the root cause of the failure, not the ending result.

Brian
04-09-2014, 03:01 PM
So what about the key way cut on the coupler end??

gn7
04-09-2014, 03:06 PM
it looks like i need a under water metal detector and i can go into the missing prop business lol> with three to five every race and some very high dollar props being tossed it might make for a lucrative weekend of diving

There you go flipping your lips again. They held a race at Parker, I think I saw ONE shaft broke. I seen a whole season and no body broke one, and you go and make a mindless statement like this. You make it very easy to classify you as FULL OF SHIT!

gn7
04-09-2014, 03:12 PM
So what about the key way cut on the coupler end??

Its not as susceptible because the shaft is clamped and the slot SHOULD be some distance from the back of the coupler. If you can keep the torsional twist away from the slot, outside the coupler, its not as much of problem.
In reality, the ouput shaft of the v drive is more prone to shearing off. Its the reason the smarter guys run a output 1/8 larger than the prop shaft.

Although it is possible that the SS80 shaft broke a prop ear first, and more than believable if you understand WHY, the shaft is also just looking for a reason to fail. A prop ear is more enough a reason.

If the shaft and the prop in the SS80 could finish a 20 lap main under my boat, I would be changing them both before I ran it again.

gn7
04-09-2014, 03:22 PM
The best machinist now days started on conventional machines. Then learned to program by hand (actually need to know trig for this) and run tape. Then learned CAD/CAM. Then learned 5-axis. All the while collecting data in they're brains about materials, tooling, processing, etc. These guys are getting close to retirement now. Welcome the new age machinist right out of trade school that can't even describe how it feels to run a hacksaw through a beer can but he can CAD draw the shit out of an impeller.

Like I said in a previous post, the best of the best CNC machines is useless in the wrong hands. Even though the program could be perfect, the wrong tool/bad tool, on the wrong angle can be just as harming as the wrong speed/feed. A Sunnen Cylinder King in the wrong hands can jack up a cylinder worse than a 1950s Kwikway with somebody that knows what he is doing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRuSYQ5Npek

HotWater
04-09-2014, 03:22 PM
Who sells the rubbery plastic type strut bushings?

gn7
04-09-2014, 03:44 PM
Who sells the rubbery plastic type strut bushings?

Lets fix this Sean. There is RUBBER in a metal jacket, and then there is the "plastic" stuff like Delron and Turcite. I am hoping you mean the later.

I believe Wilkes can make you a Turcite, and Steveo MIGHT make them from Delron. I know there are others. I'll check around.

HotWater
04-09-2014, 03:44 PM
Do you run that type on your K boat? I always assumed the race guys ran the fiber laminate type.

Yeah rubber type is in there now and it's time to replace it.

HotWater
04-09-2014, 03:53 PM
Lets fix this Sean. There is RUBBER in a metal jacket, and then there is the "plastic" stuff like Delron and Turcite. I am hoping you mean the later.

I believe Wilkes can make you a Turcite, and Steveo MIGHT make them from Delron. I know there are others. I'll check around.

It's definately rubber with a thin brass or bronze sleeve around it.

HotWater
04-09-2014, 03:57 PM
Isn't your shaft speed too much for the rubber bushing?

I don't have a tack but with 54's in the box I know the shaft speed has got to be pretty dog gone high. I'm not sure what rpm those rubber bushing's are good for.

gn7
04-09-2014, 04:15 PM
Teague and Glenwood carry them. They are made by BJ marine. You need to know the barrel ID and the shaft ID.

gn7
04-09-2014, 04:28 PM
I don't have a tack but with 54's in the box I know the shaft speed has got to be pretty dog gone high. I'm not sure what rpm those rubber bushing's are good for.

I'm liking you more all the time:biggrin:
When Dave Rankin drove Rudy's GN he would tell Rudy that the boat was turning 8700 on the straights. Rudy would say, we need to do something about that and taped the tach up with duct tape. When I ask Bill what its spinning, he tells me he has better things to do than look at a tach. So I bought a data recorder. I can't do anything about the RPM, but it lets me know how many fingers I need to keep crossed.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 04:35 PM
There you go flipping your lips again. They held a race at Parker, I think I saw ONE shaft broke. I seen a whole season and no body broke one, and you go and make a mindless statement like this. You make it very easy to classify you as FULL OF SHIT!

lol your a grumpy old a..hole aren't you lol 3-5 every race i just go off what people post on her grumpy. the enduro there was according to the post 5 props lost the parker race the post said at least three boats lost there props...so if you didn't see it , i guess it didn't happen , didn't know you personally kept track of every boat every prop every shaft at every race, no wonder your grumpy thats a shitty job to have lmao

gn7
04-09-2014, 04:53 PM
lol your a grumpy old a..hole aren't you lol 3-5 every race i just go off what people post on her grumpy. the enduro there was according to the post 5 props lost the parker race the post said at least three boats lost there props...so if you didn't see it , i guess it didn't happen , didn't know you personally kept track of every boat every prop every shaft at every race, no wonder your grumpy thats a shitty job to have lmao

I never saw where anybody said that 3 shafts were lost at Parker this weekend. You have a habit of reading shit into things people never said. Like me recommending Glenwood for a shaft when I did JUST THE OPPOSITE!!

HotWater
04-09-2014, 04:57 PM
Teague and Glenwood carry them. They are made by BJ marine. You need to know the barrel ID and the shaft ID.
What do you think is better for my app? The rubber kind I have now or the fiber style.

I'm liking you more all the time:biggrin:
When Dave Rankin drove Rudy's GN he would tell Rudy that the boat was turning 8700 on the straights. Rudy would say, we need to do something about that and taped the tach up with duct tape. When I ask Bill what its spinning, he tells me he has better things to do than look at a tach. So I bought a data recorder. I can't do anything about the RPM, but it lets me know how many fingers I need to keep crossed.
I don't see how anyone could look at a tach while bombing down the straight. I would'nt even be able to glance at one, bumps and stuff come way too quick. Only gauge I have is oil pressure and that only get's looked at during warmup and parade laps, I should probably hookup a big idiot light. I've thought about getting one of those RacePack deals, when setup right you can get a lot of usefull info afterwards.

SFV2RVR
04-09-2014, 04:58 PM
There again, posting with out thinking.
Any idea why that boat might be more prone to snapping a shaft?
Aside from the non obvious reason that could have snapped, there is some thought that the prop pitch an ear to cause that.
Ever ask Rankin, Fitz or Buckles how many props they go thru a year and why?

No. Why don't you tell me king know it all! I'm sure buckles and rankin don't go thru as many props as they used to since they been using Grose forged props.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 05:24 PM
I never saw where anybody said that 3 shafts were lost at Parker this weekend. You have a habit of reading shit into things people never said. Like me recommending Glenwood for a shaft when I did JUST THE OPPOSITE!!


you read and comprehend nothing, i never said you recommended glenwood you never recommend any one at all as a matter of fact, go read some of the other boating forums out there that you belong too and you can see where i got that from..after i found Marine Machine bought a shaft posted pictures of it .. than you like it .. now all of a sudden thats who you recommended lmao..you or kevin would not reccomened any supplier what so ever, the only thing thing that was recommend was a material type, and back to glenwood aren't you the one saying there shafts have run for years in your boats ? and Bob made yours personally while you watched? or is that just some more shit i made up ?

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 05:28 PM
almost ready to give up on hot boat.com all grumpy people out to attack each other , could of stayed in the ARMY for that...

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 05:30 PM
No. Why don't you tell me king know it all! I'm sure buckles and rankin don't go thru as many props as they used to since they been using Grose forged props.

bob is the personal shaft , prop , record keeper for the boating world didn't you know that, not a props shaft or prop goes by without his record keeping lmao

gn7
04-09-2014, 05:54 PM
What do you think is better for my app? The rubber kind I have now or the fiber style.

I don't see how anyone could look at a tach while bombing down the straight. I would'nt even be able to glance at one, bumps and stuff come way too quick. Only gauge I have is oil pressure and that only get's looked at during warmup and parade laps, I should probably hookup a big idiot light. I've thought about getting one of those RacePack deals, when setup right you can get a lot of usefull info afterwards.

Everybody has the preference. Some like the "plastic" but one says only Turcite, the others say only Delron. I use the fiber and replace every season, usually right after thanksgiving during the long break. and their cheap.

gn7
04-09-2014, 06:01 PM
No. Why don't you tell me king know it all! I'm sure buckles and rankin don't go thru as many props as they used to since they been using Grose forged props.

Only now when they lose one, it hurts a little more. They aren't as tough as some some like to make them out to be. The 44 boat has the ears tips off the ears off two so far. There is NOHING different about a Grose prop than a Radiance or Menkins except how the blade shaped. When you can explain how the you shape the blade increases the strength, you get back to me with that info. Its still 2 ears welded to a fucking hub and sent out for heat treat. How the CNC makes them stronger I would like to hear, Genius

Rankin and Darrin take them one step further when they get them from Grose, but I am not all that sold that it helps any.

SFV2RVR
04-09-2014, 06:26 PM
Only now when they lose one, it hurts a little more. They aren't as tough as some some like to make them out to be. The 44 boat has the ears tips off the ears off two so far. There is NOHING different about a Grose prop than a Radiance or Menkins except how the blade shaped. When you can explain how the you shape the blade increases the strength, you get back to me with that info. Its still 2 ears welded to a fucking hub and sent out for heat treat. How the CNC makes them stronger I would like to hear, Genius

Rankin and Darrin take them one step further when they get them from Grose, but I am not all that sold that it helps any.

Grose props don't have welded ears. They are from a forging. Maybe I'm missing something but that's straight from Joey and Ron grose's mouth. I spent a week down there with Scarlata and saw the box of forgings.
37756

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 07:24 PM
Michael, why would I recommend somebody to machine your shaft. I would do my own so why would I research a machine supplier. And for the record Bob did tell you to go to marine machine. Maybe not in this thread but he did somewhere on HB
i know and bob did not mention marine machine i was the first to comment on it, i know you didn't recommend anyone why would you you can make it yourself..and if you remember i researched the company and asked for your opinion. you said you would use them and that was good enough for me, what bob said is that a supplier has a batch of bad shafts , never who not a name out of his mouth till today, if giving him the credit for it makes him happy than he did all my research for me contacted them look at the certs and the type of machines and gave his word that , thats who to use than he did, just like with the Grose forged props he said there welded ears than there welded ears no matter what picture is posted..

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 07:28 PM
:leghump:
Grose props don't have welded ears. They are from a forging. Maybe I'm missing something but that's straight from Joey and Ron grose's mouth. I spent a week down there with Scarlata and saw the box of forgings.
37756

There is NOHING different about a Grose prop than a Radiance or Menkins except how the blade shaped. When you can explain how the you shape the blade increases the strength, you get back to me with that info. Its still 2 ears welded to a fucking hub and sent out for heat treat.

LMAO if he said there welded than there welded dam it ... lmao

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 07:38 PM
Only now when they lose one, it hurts a little more. They aren't as tough as some some like to make them out to be. The 44 boat has the ears tips off the ears off two so far. There is NOHING different about a Grose prop than a Radiance or Menkins except how the blade shaped. When you can explain how the you shape the blade increases the strength, you get back to me with that info. Its still 2 ears welded to a fucking hub and sent out for heat treat. How the CNC makes them stronger I would like to hear, Genius

Rankin and Darrin take them one step further when they get them from Grose, but I am not all that sold that it helps any.

Ron Grose Racing and Machine provides superior quality, workmanship and ... Patented one-piece forged propeller available;straight off the web page ,,, lmao

gn7
04-09-2014, 07:51 PM
Ron Grose Racing and Machine provides superior quality, workmanship and ... Patented one-piece forged propeller available;straight off the web page ,,, lmao

So if the tip if the ears of the Grose props snap off, it proves the forging are better than welded ears? How it how the root at the hub helping the tip of the blade.

I have nothing against Grose props. I have no doubt it a great product. But the prop under my GN won 5 championships that I know of in the history I was able to track, and it was made in 1988 and final obtained a small crack in Nov 2012. That's not a bad run under a blown GN.
I paid 150.00 unseen off E bay, What does a Grose prop cost, and might fail after 2 weekends??

I don't care if its carved by hand with a hacksaw and file, if it only lasts 2 weekends, I try something else.

I the forging is a stronger root/hub, how does that help the rest of the blade. Are you suggesting the forging is stronger everywhere else over milled plate. Are does the ONLY thing it eliminates is the weld?

SFV2RVR
04-09-2014, 08:14 PM
:leghump:

There is NOHING different about a Grose prop than a Radiance or Menkins except how the blade shaped. When you can explain how the you shape the blade increases the strength, you get back to me with that info. Its still 2 ears welded to a fucking hub and sent out for heat treat.

LMAO if he said there welded than there welded dam it ... lmao

Sorry but GN7 is WRONG on the welded ear portion about Grose props! Forged one piece props are far stronger than a prop that has welded ears. I'm not saying a Grose prop has never cracked, but it's proven to be stronger than the standard Radiance or menkins.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 08:29 PM
Sorry but GN7 is WRONG on the welded ear portion about Grose props! Forged one piece props are far stronger than a prop that has welded ears. I'm not saying a Grose prop has never cracked, but it's proven to be stronger than the standard Radiance or menkins.

Mark i know the difference lol , and a one piece prop shouldn't throw the blades off now the tip of the blade is different , but the blade coming off the hub should not be a issue ...

SnoC653
04-09-2014, 08:54 PM
Mark i know the difference lol , and a one piece prop shouldn't throw the blades off now the tip of the blade is different , but the blade coming off the hub should not be a issue ...

If it throws the whole blade or part of the blade, it is just as bad and could have exactly the same effect. Many conventionally manufactured props have gone years and years without throwing blades or parts of the blade, So to say something is stronger because it is perceived that it is impossible for it to throw the whole blade, is a bit pointless if there are reports of these props throwing parts of the blade.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 09:23 PM
If it throws the whole blade or part of the blade, it is just as bad and could have exactly the same effect. Many conventionally manufactured props have gone years and years without throwing blades or parts of the blade, So to say something is stronger because it is perceived that it is impossible for it to throw the whole blade, is a bit pointless if there are reports of these props throwing parts of the blade.in agreement i guess the reason the problems are becoming more and more is ... my reason is the boats are making more power , being driven harder in rougher water..i have not heard of a forged prop throwing a ear

gn7
04-09-2014, 09:58 PM
in agreement i guess the reason the problems are becoming more and more is ... my reason is the boats are making more power , being driven harder in rougher water..i have not heard of a forged prop throwing a ear

Not always the case. I in the case of the top SS guys and the 44s props, it do to pushing the limits of the props "design" for lack of better term. Just like the SS prop shafts.

I looked at the 44 prop at the Thanksgiving race 2012, and it look like a prop that I MIGHT consider running in a kilo, but not a race. it was so thin it looked like I break the ends of the ears off by hand. The SS props are worse. Its all in the search for speed. The 44 prop was probably pushed a little too far. I think they were hopeing that between the material and heat treat, plus the secondary treatments it would work. Well, material and treatments can get you only so far. I think sure they backed off that a little and the blade is a wee bit thicker. In the case of the SS guys, they can only give up so much to make the prop live.
Its like the shaft that failed Long Beach. That is the second shaft I witnessed the 80 boat fail in the time its ran, and the other was at Long Beach too. Probably has a little to do with the rougher water. But when you START with a 7/8 prop shaft, you have to accept that it can happen. Same with thinning the shit out of the blade. Sooner or later you are going to pay the price. 7/8 shaft CAN be only part of it. Has ANY body ever gun drilled one. Tapered or double tapered one? Hour glassed one? Reduced the diameter below 7/8 between the coupler and strut? Ti shaft? Its all been tried. When you do things like that, you have to accept the possibility that shit can and will happen.

Fitz told be he can get 2 to 3 weekends out of a prop and the boat slows 2-3 MPH and loses some acceleration. Take the prop off, bang some pitch back in it, stand the blade back up, and accept the fact that when does it again, the props finished.

So when I see a SS shear a prop or snap a shaft, I don't give it second thought. Its not the same a GN, K or PS doing it. Its self induced, and its accepted fact. its pushing the limits of the part, and it doesn't matter if its a Grose 4340 prop, or if God himself made it. Its being pushed beyond its design limits. I don't give a shit if its forged, welded, or fell from the sky like manna from heaven. It can only take so much of you want to push the design limits.
Its like running flat tappet cams with beyond stupid ramps and roller springs. Shit isn't going to last too long.

The shit going on in GN with the engines is the same thing. Its beyond stupid. Bless the 44 boat, because they aren't playing the time bomb game. Although they may have taken the prop thing a little too far last year.

ogshotgun
04-09-2014, 11:23 PM
Not always the case. I in the case of the top SS guys and the 44s props, it do to pushing the limits of the props "design" for lack of better term. Just like the SS prop shafts.

I looked at the 44 prop at the Thanksgiving race 2012, and it look like a prop that I MIGHT consider running in a kilo, but not a race. it was so thin it looked like I break the ends of the ears off by hand. The SS props are worse. Its all in the search for speed. The 44 prop was probably pushed a little too far. I think they were hopeing that between the material and heat treat, plus the secondary treatments it would work. Well, material and treatments can get you only so far. I think sure they backed off that a little and the blade is a wee bit thicker. In the case of the SS guys, they can only give up so much to make the prop live.
Its like the shaft that failed Long Beach. That is the second shaft I witnessed the 80 boat fail in the time its ran, and the other was at Long Beach too. Probably has a little to do with the rougher water. But when you START with a 7/8 prop shaft, you have to accept that it can happen. Same with thinning the shit out of the blade. Sooner or later you are going to pay the price. 7/8 shaft CAN be only part of it. Has ANY body ever gun drilled one. Tapered or double tapered one? Hour glassed one? Reduced the diameter below 7/8 between the coupler and strut? Ti shaft? Its all been tried. When you do things like that, you have to accept the possibility that shit can and will happen.

Fitz told be he can get 2 to 3 weekends out of a prop and the boat slows 2-3 MPH and loses some acceleration. Take the prop off, bang some pitch back in it, stand the blade back up, and accept the fact that when does it again, the props finished.

So when I see a SS shear a prop or snap a shaft, I don't give it second thought. Its not the same a GN, K or PS doing it. Its self induced, and its accepted fact. its pushing the limits of the part, and it doesn't matter if its a Grose 4340 prop, or if God himself made it. Its being pushed beyond its design limits. I don't give a shit if its forged, welded, or fell from the sky like manna from heaven. It can only take so much of you want to push the design limits.
Its like running flat tappet cams with beyond stupid ramps and roller springs. Shit isn't going to last too long.

The shit going on in GN with the engines is the same thing. Its beyond stupid. Bless the 44 boat, because they aren't playing the time bomb game. Although they may have taken the prop thing a little too far last year.

well said ....

gn7
04-10-2014, 09:40 AM
Sorry but GN7 is WRONG on the welded ear portion about Grose props! Forged one piece props are far stronger than a prop that has welded ears. I'm not saying a Grose prop has never cracked, but it's proven to be stronger than the standard Radiance or menkins.

You seem pretty confident of that. You ever talk to Ron about a having a prop made. Any idea the cost of having a forging die made. How many props do you have to make to recover the cost of the tooling? Think about it before you go high fiving yourself.
Maybe things are EXACTLY what you thing they are.

SFV2RVR
04-10-2014, 10:00 AM
You seem pretty confident of that. You ever talk to Ron about a having a prop made. Any idea the cost of having a forging die made. How many props do you have to make to recover the cost of the tooling? Think about it before you go high fiving yourself.
Maybe things are EXACTLY what you thing they are.

I'm very confident in fact! I have one of Ron's props on my Schiada. The box of forgings I posted a picture of cost about 150k. Selling the 4340 props even for $2800 is still gonna take a while before you re-coop all your money.

gn7
04-10-2014, 10:29 AM
I'm very confident in fact! I have one of Ron's props on my Schiada. The box of forgings I posted a picture of cost about 150k. Selling the 4340 props even for $2800 is still gonna take a while before you re-coop all your money.
Cool, can I borrow it?
Things may have changed in the couple years since I talked to Ron about a prop. But at the time he couldn't make a prop from a forging, and certainly not from that fucking box of blanks you posted to show how fucking full of shit I am. You can recover the money fairly quick if you make enough props, and he does make more than a few. But you do have to make a few.
Let me ask you, are you using your fucking head when you make these posts? You think there may a teenie tiny difference between a prop for you Schiada and my boat that you are not going to fix in a fucking CNC machine

Think about.

gn7
04-10-2014, 10:53 AM
I don't understand your question here. I know it's not directed at me, but I am trying to understand what your asking.

Could you CNC me a prop from that box of blanks?
I spent a little more time looking into a Grose prop years ago than some think. I not all that easy for some of use to get a forged prop as some believe. At least it was when I talked to Ron. But he was very interested on getting into the game.

Maybe some people are way more connected than I am, and can pull a magic blank out of their ass.

SFV2RVR
04-10-2014, 10:55 AM
Cool, can I borrow it?
Things may have changed in the couple years since I talked to Ron about a prop. But at the time he couldn't make a prop from a forging, and certainly not from that fucking box of blanks you posted to show how fucking full of shit I am. You can recover the money fairly quick if you make enough props, and he does make more than a few. But you do have to make a few.
Let me ask you, are you using your fucking head when you make these posts? You think there may a teenie tiny difference between a prop for you Schiada and my boat that you are not going to fix in a fucking CNC machine

Think about.

Are you using your fucking head when you post? The box of forgings is what Ron makes his props out of! I'm pretty sure your GN boat and my Schiada wouldn't be to far off in prop designs, so I'm not sure what your saying?

gn7
04-10-2014, 10:58 AM
Are you using your fucking head when you post? The box of forgings is what Ron makes his props out of! I'm pretty sure your GN boat and my Schiada wouldn't be to far off in prop designs, so I'm not sure what your saying?

Really??

SFV2RVR
04-10-2014, 11:00 AM
Really??

Ya really!

HB Vic
04-10-2014, 11:05 AM
This thread delivers :thumbup:

gn7
04-10-2014, 11:08 AM
Are you saying that box of what looks forgings isn't forgings?

Of course they are forging

Ya really!
Cool, can I borrow it.

Why wouldn't they be close? Marc's Schiada is running most of the hardware you would see in an enduro or ski race boat, just WAY prettier.
I guess that all that matters, Should work then. What was I thinking?

SFV2RVR
04-10-2014, 11:14 AM
Of course they are forging

Cool, can I borrow it.

I guess that all that matters, Should work then. What was I thinking?

No you can't borrow it. Let's here your answer on why they wouldn't be similar props? Educate me.

gn7
04-10-2014, 11:20 AM
This thread delivers :thumbup:


Delivers what??? :D

The comedy that is unfolding right before you eyes wide shit.

I'l say this again, REAL SLOW. Those dies are EXPENSIVE. There is a minimum run to cover the setup at the mill. Nobody is going to hammer you 3 or 4 blanks, or its going to cost you a small fortune per blank. You have to make more than few props to more than a team or two to recover the money. HOW MANY TEAMS DO YOU KNOW USING THEM???
Now MAYBE Ron is a very forward looking with a lot of confidence he can move that many props to justify the cost. Right now, I don't see it, but I have been wrong before. But when I talked to Ron, he was doing props for Tony's K and I couldn't even tell you they were CNC'd, very possibly could have been. But I pretty certain they were welded. When I spoke with him, he was more capable of making a CNC's prop from a trace mapping of my prop, but it would be welded.

Now maybe SFV2R2R is more connected than I am, and has lunch 3 times a week with Ron and is more in the know. Maybe things have changed. MAYBE

But do you think you could CNC me a prop from the same blanks Ron used on SFV2R2R Schiada?? Because Ron sure as fuck couldn't

gn7
04-10-2014, 11:23 AM
No you can't borrow it. Let's here your answer on why they wouldn't be similar props? Educate me.

Whats wrong here
http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu19/Dasher1945/polish3_zps5d640b79.jpg

SFV2RVR
04-10-2014, 11:30 AM
The comedy that is unfolding right before you eyes wide shit.

I say this again, REAL SLOW. Those dies are EXPENSIVE. There is a minimum run to cover the setup are the mill. Nobody is going to hammer you 3 or 4 blank, or its going to cist you a small fortune per blank. You have to make more than few props to more a team or two to recover the money. Now MAYBE Ron is a very forward looking with a lot of confidence he can move that many props to justify the cost. Right now, I don't see it, but I have been wrong before. But when I talked to Ron, he was doing props for Tony's K and I couldn't even tell you they were CNC'd, very possibly could have been. But I pretty certain they were welded. When I spoke with him, he was more capable of making a CNC's prop from a trace mapping of my prop, but it would be welded.

Now maybe SFV2R2R is more coneected than I am, and has lunch 3 times a week with Ron and is more in the know. Maybe things have changed. MAYBE.

But do you think you could CNC me a prop from the same blanks Ron used on SFV2R2R Schiada?? Because Ron sure as fuck couldn't

I actually only have lunch with him 2 days a week! All those forgings are the same thickness. He can make anything from Rankins SS props to my Schiada prop to Eddie Knox's TFH prop from them. The only new forging he had to buy to make a different prop for was Linder's Schiada SR22. It was like a 12x17 or something like that. All his new prop's that come out of that box of forgings are CNC'd and NOT WELDED.

SFV2RVR
04-10-2014, 11:30 AM
Whats wrong here
http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu19/Dasher1945/polish3_zps5d640b79.jpg

You not holding it?

gn7
04-10-2014, 11:32 AM
If I made the forging dies for those blanks in the box I would have charged somewhere in the 25-30 thousand range, just by looking at the pic. Oh, and yes I know how to make forging dies, and injection molds, and investment cast molds, and blow molds, and hydro forming dies, and work holding tooling and fixtures. Blah, blah blah.
Could I machine those blanks in the pic? Abso-fucking-lutely.
For MY boat, or for SFV2R2R's

SFV2RVR
04-10-2014, 11:35 AM
For MY boat, or for SFV2R2R's

It's SFV2RVR. Thanks!

gn7
04-10-2014, 11:40 AM
Okay, fine. Other than left and right hand rotation, what is different in the design?

None. But its ANOTHER die, and ANOTHER minimum run. They haven't invented the CNC that can fix that. How many does he sell to teams needing right hand props. What's the recovery. Who has he sold props to so far.
Like I said, things may have changed since I talked to him about a prop, and he was very interested in getting into circle boats, thanks mainly to Tony.
If he did invest in a set of dies, kudos to him.

Does not change the failures that I have seen with his props, and the failure are in no way was a reflection of his product at all. When the outer edge of the blade peels off, it has nothing to do with how the prop was constructed. Heat possibly, but I more than little suspect it is more in the "tune" of the prop. I wouldn't even want to bet a dollar that the prop went untouched after Ron made them. I knew they went thru an additional surface treatment after Ron delivered them. Its possible that wasn't the only work done. If they weren't "tuned up", then its entirely possible that Ron simply made/duplicated what was given him.
I have a prop tuned by Gibbs that is wicked fast, and I would consider using it for a kilo attempt. But I would NEVER stick it under the boat for a GN race. It would never finish a 20 lapper. If I gave to Ron to dup, and it failed, whos fault its that, mine or Rons?

SFV2RVR
04-10-2014, 12:07 PM
Well if Marc's numbers are right, and he has sold 100 props to the drag guys and river guys, which I don't think would be hard to do, then he has almost double downed. So he's recouped his investment.

Those numbers are straight from Joey and Ron's mouth!

gn7
04-10-2014, 12:20 PM
Well if Marc's numbers are right, and he has sold 100 props to the drag guys and river guys, which I don't think would be hard to do, then he has almost double downed. So he's recouped his investment.


Those numbers are straight from Joey and Ron's mouth!

You still don't fucking get it!

SFV2RVR
04-10-2014, 12:27 PM
You still don't fucking get it!

You don't seem to fucking get it! Call fucking Ron then and have him explain everything I just told you, and then you can backpedal even more and tell everyone your wrong! Oh who am I kidding...you would never admit that your wrong!

gn7
04-10-2014, 12:33 PM
Well if Marc's numbers are right, and he has sold 100 props to the drag guys and river guys, which I don't think would be hard to do, then he has almost double downed. So he's recouped his investment.

You see anything in common here?

Like I said, things may have changed in past couple years. If he took that leap of faith, good for him. I hope he sells 1000s of them. I know of two teams that have bought props from him so far. So he has his work cut out for him to move that many.
I know Rankin has least a couple. The GN44 is on at least the 2nd one. Buckles may be running them. I have sent an E mail to someone I think could be running one.
Know any others. Looong ways from the hundreds your taking about UNDER DRAG AND LAKE BOATS!!!

gn7
04-10-2014, 01:15 PM
I guess.
The point that was started here was about shafts failing, and the possibility that 80 boat pitched ear that took out the shaft.
Whether it was the prop, or the shaft is meaningless. In either case it is not indicative a material failure, or poor machining, and has zero bearing on any of us, and virtually nothing to do with the other failures that started this thread. We've brought valve spring failures in Nascar into a conversation about daily drivers. There is NO connection to what is under the top running SS and wants under ANY of our boats, or the ones than run the enduro. Its different animal. We might as well be discussing the proplems with camshafts and lifters while we at it. Know any enduro, circle boat, ski racers, drag racers that suffer the camshaft issues the SS guys do. So why are we even discussing the issues with the skinney ass propshafts and razor blade thin props. It ludicrous.

IF the 80 boat did pitch a blade, it has NOTHING do how the prop was constructed, If it wasn't the cause, it still means jack shit. The prop and shaft are destine to fail. Failure was built into both from the beginning.
Like a top fuel motor. It MIGHT live to the end, but don't turn it around and take back to the start line. Its spent. 3.5 second of life is all it had in it from the assembling. Lets not wonder why they burn pistons, torch valve and hammer bearings, and question the material and manufacturing.

gn7
04-10-2014, 02:14 PM
You bring up an interesting point. More than were it came from, or the yahoo that stuffed into the grinder, I question what the "retailer: sells it as, and what the producer sold it as.

Case in point. Years ago, Comp Cams/Racing Head Service bought out Pro Topline heads in New Zealand. They changed the cast in name and logo on the head to RHS. They sold 1000s of sets of them over the years as 356T6 virgin aluminum.

Along come some shady POS that makes a dead ringer copy of them out of China. They are shit, and the aluminum is dead soft crap.

This goes on for a few years, and the POS crook selling copies is selling them for less than half the RHS head.

Then, RHS sells off the tooling for the iron head to AA Enginequest, and the aluminum heads no longer have the cast in logo over the exhaust, and have the RHS CNC's on the end of the end of the head. They look more like the copy than they do the original head.

Now when you go to RHS's website, there is no mention 356T6 virgin aluminum. Its just lightweight aluminum casting.
They do have engine blocks that say 356 T6, but not heads, Ford, or Chevy, big or small block. And the price fell by over 35%

Now you tell me why you think that is.

I 'am not nearly as concerned with where the material came from, as I am if its REALLY what it is claimed to be, or a "similar" material that is "just as good" that was bought by the retailer. Either to raise his profits, or doing me a HUGE favor my saving me some money. With my $2000 prop hanging off that shaft.

gn7
04-10-2014, 03:09 PM
I have no idea why that is, I'm not a retailer. My guess is they farmed it to China. But for one retailer to state that another retailer's product is shit because the material came from China is retarded to listen to. Especially when the material in question is a high grade stainless or exotic if you want to call it that.

I agree. My point was, that they aren't so much farming the heads out to China, but the heads are no longer labeled as 356T6 virgin, which means they can be any crap recycled alloy, because there is no claim it is any thing but lightweight aluminum. So is a beer can, and widow frames.

As far as prop shafts, is the material REALLY XXXX, or is a "similar material"
Anybody have or seen a cert for the material? Or just taking the word of the person cutting the shafts or his supplier? There are counterfeit DVD and Rolex watches and everything in between. Bogus parts have ended up in jumbo jets. It wouldn't be a stretch to find a bogus shaft in a boat.
Its not that China can't produce the stuff, They can launch a satellite, and shoot it down from a land based missile, and have done both. But the country does have a reputation for looking the other way when it comes to bogus stuff. Counterfeit U.S. money here, and you go to jail. Countereit U.S. money there, and they take your plates away and slap your hand. Counterfeit Chinese money, and they execute you at sunrise.

JBS
04-10-2014, 03:31 PM
I agree. My point was, that they aren't so much farming the heads out to China, but the heads are no longer labeled as 356T6 virgin, which means they can be any crap recycled alloy, because there is no claim it is any thing but lightweight aluminum. So is a beer can, and widow frames.

As far as prop shafts, is the material REALLY XXXX, or is a "similar material"
Anybody have or seen a cert for the material? Or just taking the word of the person cutting the shafts or his supplier? There are counterfeit DVD and Rolex watches and everything in between. Bogus parts have ended up in jumbo jets. It wouldn't be a stretch to find a bogus shaft in a boat.
Its not that China can't produce the stuff, They can launch a satellite, and shoot it down from a land based missile, and have done both. But the country does have a reputation for looking the other way when it comes to bogus stuff. Counterfeit U.S. money here, and you go to jail. Countereit U.S. money there, and they take your plates away and slap your hand. Counterfeit Chinese money, and they execute you at sunrise.

As someone who is forced by some of my customers to use Molds built in China I can tell you that they don't know shit about Steel or the hardening process. Have I gotten good molds from China. Yep in a few cases. Most though are not. As for Certs that's a total joke. They will cert anything you ask for.

I am dealing with a new program right now that involves 9 molds. 2 of these molds even in pictures are garbage. My Customer does not care. They just say run it. One of the molds has 4 Hydraulic cylinders on it that they swear are off the shelf components. They are not. They went as far a giving us the name of the Mfg. The Mfg. does exist but they tell me they did not make the cylinders. Asked for a serial number. I am still waiting.

China is garbage. They know what we don't know. That we are greedy and gullible and will accept their shit in hopes of saving a little. Their equivalent is not even close.

gn7
04-10-2014, 03:45 PM
As someone who is forced by some of my customers to use Molds built in China I can tell you that they don't know shit about Steel or the hardening process. Have I gotten good molds from China. Yep in a few cases. Most though are not. As for Certs that's a total joke. They will cert anything you ask for.

I am dealing with a new program right now that involves 9 molds. 2 of these molds even in pictures are garbage. My Customer does not care. They just say run it. One of the molds has 4 Hydraulic cylinders on it that they swear are off the shelf components. They are not. They went as far a giving us the name of the Mfg. The Mfg. does exist but they tell me they did not make the cylinders. Asked for a serial number. I am still waiting.

China is garbage. They know what we don't know. That we are greedy and gullible and will accept their shit in hopes of saving a little. Their equivalent is not even close.

But never underestimate what bastards CAN DO. They are not the USSR, and we were "terrified" of them for years. They couldn't make a decent paper bag the bottom didn't fall out of. The Chinese are more than capable of reverse engineering, and manufacturing anything they like. Keep in mind, the computer you are posting from, and the phone you talk on the TV you watch all came from there. I don't know too meny people throwing there Iphone against the wall and yelling "this POS". Most are in line the day after the newest one comes out to be the first on the block with one.

But I never ever forget, that there is nothing that can't be made cheaper and shittier. And people willing to buy it. And they never forget it either.

ogshotgun
04-15-2014, 03:05 PM
spoke to gross this weekend about the Polygonal shafts and props,he told me it was just to time consuming too machine both pieces for a exact fit so he discontinued them, than i asked the process for making a prop from a forging , he said they have american made forgings and they digitize your existing prop and CNC a exact copy out of the forging...just what he told me.

ptc
04-16-2014, 02:05 PM
Last 3 pages - looks like Bobs been drunk posting again.... !!! :beer:deadhorse:

SnoC653
04-16-2014, 02:33 PM
Isn't copying someone else's design by digitizing it and the cutting it out on a CNC machine the same thing everyone cry's foul over when people do it with other parts? I can't say how many açusations I've seen whee someone's part looks similar to another person's parts or where they we're blatantly copied. And everyone seems to agree if it was copied, it isn't right and nobody should buy them. What makes copying a prop different?

HotWater
04-16-2014, 04:26 PM
Isn't copying someone else's design by digitizing it and the cutting it out on a CNC machine the same thing everyone cry's foul over when people do it with other parts? I can't say how many açusations I've seen whee someone's part looks similar to another person's parts or where they we're blatantly copied. And everyone seems to agree if it was copied, it isn't right and nobody should buy them. What makes copying a prop different?

I don't think Grose Racing is buying random props to copy. Usually someone will take them a prop that they have tested and reworked to get the results that they want. Then it is digitized and a blank is cnc machined hopeing to get an exact duplicate of the favorite prop for their own use. What is wrong with that?

SnoC653
04-16-2014, 06:13 PM
I don't think Grose Racing is buying random props to copy. Usually someone will take them a prop that they have tested and reworked to get the results that they want. Then it is digitized and a blank is cnc machined hopeing to get an exact duplicate of the favorite prop for their own use. What is wrong with that?

I don't think they are either. But if I buy a billet part from someone, say a trick timing cover, take it to a local machine shop and ask them to make me 3 copies of it (for my own personal use) are you saying that would be fair to the original designer? It takes very little effort to reverse engineer something rather than to design it in the first place. The point is, there is a prop designer or someone who reworked the prop to make it work the way it did. They have their time and money invested in acquiring the skills to make said prop work. My question is more specifically, how is reverse engineering a prop any different from reverse engineering any other part?

HotWater
04-16-2014, 08:09 PM
I don't think they are either. But if I buy a billet part from someone, say a trick timing cover, take it to a local machine shop and ask them to make me 3 copies of it (for my own personal use) are you saying that would be fair to the original designer? It takes very little effort to reverse engineer something rather than to design it in the first place. The point is, there is a prop designer or someone who reworked the prop to make it work the way it did. They have their time and money invested in acquiring the skills to make said prop work. My question is more specifically, how is reverse engineering a prop any different from reverse engineering any other part?

Snoc, the prop's that are being copied are refined parts. They are'nt just a prop straight from a manufacturer. They have been reworked to your specs or info by a craftsman with experience that was probably paid to do so. The prop may look similiar to what it started as but it is not the same as the original part. You bought a prop and paid for it to be modified, it's yours. If that prop works perfect for you why would you not want another exactly like it? Like westernaero said, it's impossible to get more than one prop the same by hand. Reverse engineering a custom prop that you like is very different than reverse engineering a trick timing cover that you had no input in.

SnoC653
04-16-2014, 08:50 PM
Snoc, the prop's that are being copied are refined parts. They are'nt just a prop straight from a manufacturer. They have been reworked to your specs or info by a craftsman with experience that was probably paid to do so. The prop may look similiar to what it started as but it is not the same as the original part. You bought a prop and paid for it to be modified, it's yours. If that prop works perfect for you why would you not want another exactly like it? Like westernaero said, it's impossible to get more than one prop the same by hand. Reverse engineering a custom prop that you like is very different than reverse engineering a trick timing cover that you had no input in.

I disagree. You tell a technician you want more lift from a prop. He reworks it. You don't tell him how much pitch to put in it, how much rake, or how thin or thick to make the ears nor where the taper should begin. When a professional makes something from his expertise in the subject matter, that doesn't give you the customer intellectual rights to his work nor the right to have it reproduced commercially (at least not without permission). And who maintains the rights to the design once it's copied? And how does the person with the real design skill protect his design and intellectual property? Not to mention what happens if someone sells one of the copies to someone else (say I have a prop that works really great on a specific hull design and other racers want a copy since they tried mine and it worked great on their hulls too)? Then it is no longer a matter of someone making a backup copy for themselves. How do you insure that individual copies don't get sold separately? And not implying anyone specific would sell one of the copies, but how do you ensure that a prop vendor doesn't sell copies when he can make one at will?

Mitch
04-16-2014, 09:12 PM
He must be damn good if he can knock off a $500 dollar welded 2 blade and get $2800 for his version :) I run the house prop which is a Grose design and its bad ass by far the best prop I have ran . I have a new one in the mail if anybody is looking for a good used prop let me know .

HotWater
04-16-2014, 09:14 PM
I disagree. You tell a technician you want more lift from a prop. He reworks it. You don't tell him how much pitch to put in it, how much rake, or how thin or thick to make the ears nor where the taper should begin. When a professional makes something from his expertise in the subject matter, that doesn't give you the customer intellectual rights to his work nor the right to have it reproduced commercially (at least not without permission). And who maintains the rights to the design once it's copied? And how does the person with the real design skill protect his design and intellectual property? Not to mention what happens if someone sells one of the copies to someone else (say I have a prop that works really great on a specific hull design and other racers want a copy since they tried mine and it worked great on their hulls too)? Then it is no longer a matter of someone making a backup copy for themselves. How do you insure that individual copies don't get sold separately? And not implying anyone specific would sell one of the copies, but how do you ensure that a prop vendor doesn't sell copies when he can make one at will?

Well hell, if someone is that worried about their part getting copied maybe they should'nt have sold it in the first place.
I can't wait till if and when you start racing KRR.

Mitch
04-16-2014, 09:56 PM
What size is the prop?

11X16 left hand 1 1/8 shaft ......

gn7
04-16-2014, 10:37 PM
Last 3 pages - looks like Bobs been drunk posting again.... !!! :beer:deadhorse:



FUCK YOU!!
I never post drunk asshole

gn7
04-16-2014, 10:51 PM
Isn't copying someone else's design by digitizing it and the cutting it out on a CNC machine the same thing everyone cry's foul over when people do it with other parts? I can't say how many açusations I've seen whee someone's part looks similar to another person's parts or where they we're blatantly copied. And everyone seems to agree if it was copied, it isn't right and nobody should buy them. What makes copying a prop different?

Not a man in the in the world except a few making prop for unlimited hydro teams can say the design a prop and lay claim it. 99% of the prop makers can't duplicate their own fucking prop, how they can claim you copied one. They'd look a fool in court if they can't make an EXCATE copy the prop they claim was copied, AND THEY CANNOT!!! But some how the accused can make EXACTE duplicates, and he is the so call forger.

YOU OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND INTEL MAN??

gn7
04-16-2014, 10:58 PM
You guys are wasting your time. snoc's knowledge of props couldn't fill a bottle cap. He has ZERO clue

SnoC653
04-17-2014, 12:02 PM
You guys are wasting your time. snoc's knowledge of props couldn't fill a bottle cap. He has ZERO clue

Speaking of having zero clue, please step away from the bottle Bob(oh yeah, you say you don't drunk post, please get an education then). What does knowledge of props have to do with a discussion of reverse engineering a product? Just like when people were splashing hulls, eventually the courts ruled you can't do that. Copying someone else's work is not legal, ethical, nor right.

How many times have you cried like a baby that lost your binky over Chinese reverse engineered parts. Its the same thing. The only difference I see here is that people like the person that is making the copies of props and they want copies for themselves of good props that work. So apparently that makes reverse engineering a part OK.

And no it isn't like someone manufacturing crankshafts of their own design and then selling them. Unless GM has a patent on the crankshaft, which would mean someone owes them a royalty, designing a similar part that fits in their block isn't the same as copying their part. Sonny doesn't copy the GM crank exactly and then CNC it. They design their own based on the dimensions they have to work with, and you can bet they have their own engineers. Now the Chinese will reverse engineer a Sonny crank and then pump them out on a CNC, but just like the props, that's ok, right? What would happen if the Chinese took a copy of a Grose prop and started making copies available for $1800. Or if they had you send them the cad file made by a shop here in the states or your Grose prop and they pumped you out exact copies for $600 each? GN7 already said SS props are expected to wear out, so if they don't last quite as long but you could get 4 props for less than the cost of one and get more total time out of the 4, why not? That is what we're discussing.

It's not about the manufacturing process or the quality of the product being produced, it's about copying someone else's work without their express permission. And we're not talking about making a similar part, we're talking about making an exact copy of someone else's work.
Ask any engineer who's had his design hijacked by someone and see how they feel about the subject.

gn7
04-17-2014, 01:04 PM
I cannot believe you are so fucking stupid as to think you can reverse engineer a fucking prop. How fucking dumb are you really. IF I have my prop tuned and worked, and then copied by Grose, is it the property of the guy that made it, or the guys that tuned it, or is I my property because I told the guy that tuned it what I wanted done. Are you that fucking insane. And the fucking military referred to you as a INTEL SPECIALIST. GOD HELP OUR ASSES.

You cannot reverse engineer a fucking crankshaft DUMBASS! Is it a different fucking crankshaft once I balance to my rods and pistons. Please tell you aren't really that fucking stupid and served in a military and you're just fucking with me

Oh, And will I ask you as nicely as I can to refrain for drinking comments

YOU MISERABLE

HB Vic
04-17-2014, 01:27 PM
Bob I'm going to ask you nicely once.

HB Vic
04-17-2014, 01:30 PM
Come on Vic, you didn't have to delete the whole thing, did you? Just the bold words maybe.

its still there

SnoC653
04-17-2014, 01:33 PM
I cannot believe you are so fucking stupid as to think you can reverse engineer a fucking prop. How fucking dumb are you really. IF I have my prop tuned and worked, and then copied by Grose, is it the property of the guy that made it, or the guys that tuned it, or is I my property because I told the guy that tuned it what I wanted done. Are you that fucking insane. And the fucking military referred to you as a INTEL SPECIALIST. GOD HELP OUR ASSES.

You cannot reverse engineer a fucking crankshaft DUMBASS! Is it a different fucking crankshaft once I balance to my rods and pistons. Please tell you aren't really that fucking stupid and served in a military and you're just fucking with me

Oh, And will I ask you as nicely as I can to refrain for drinking comments

YOU MISERABLE

You do realize that reverse engineering is the term that refers to 3-D scanning of a part (a loose catch all term that they use for the process of 3-D scanning objects). A 3-D scan is one of the steps needed for making an exact CNC duplicate of a part. Let me clarify that, an exact physical duplicate in design, not material or build process as scanning someone else's work eliminates the developement, design, and testing processes all together.

And if that is as nice as possible, maybe you should go back to the meetings and figure out what steps you're missing. Sent with all my care and concern, from one Asshole to another.

SnoC653
04-17-2014, 01:42 PM
Snoc, I don't understand why you have such a hard-on about digitizing a prop. If anything you're going to get a prop that both ears match one another in stead of one pushing harder than the other.

Making two perfectly matched ears is different than copying a prop exactly. If the ears are different, which one do they copy?

If they copy one of Harold's props exactly because it is the hot ticket in a specific application, that is wrong. If they look at the prop and make a new design of their own using digital accuracy based on what they think Harold was trying to do, that is grey, but not blatantly wrong even if they measure one of his prop ears and duplicate the concept exactly on both ears. At least they are doing design and development work at their own expense. They might find that the design doesn't work as efficiently with both ears the exact same as either of the ones on the original prop.

But if it turns out that Harold's prop is the perfect design, shouldn't he benefit from his work if everyone wants an exact copy of his work and design?

SnoC653
04-17-2014, 02:31 PM
I don't know who Harold is. But maybe he should be paying royalties to somebody. Somebody was doing it before him.
Things advance mechanically because somebody is always copying somebody and improving on it. Key word, "improving" that's the important part. Not copying like China to produce something to sell cheaper.

Harold Kindsvater is a leading prop maker for v-drives. He also does aircraft propellers, so I've been told and is definitely not just copying other's work. Can he make two ears that are identical? I don't know. But, he can definitely make props that work and work well.

So we agree that copying is wrong when it comes to China, but disagree on it being wrong for Grose to copy a prop. You do realize that some consider a part being more affordable an improvement even if it isn't as reliable over the long haul?

The best prop we ever ran on our hydroplane was an accident. The chain wasn't put on correctly and the prop shaft backed out and the prop hit the rudder. Our Carry 12 X 20 1/2 became an 11 1/2 X 18 3/4 or something like that, with the cupping reworked and the whole prop re-balanced. It made our 280 come alive and everyone that asked got to try it. It had the same effect on numerous boats. Dad wouldn't sell the boat and nobody could copy the prop exactly back then. Many racers had prop builders build them props that were as close as possible, which is good to go in my book. Some worked better than others and the man that did the work on our prop, made several of the new props (his payment for coming up with something that worked, based on his years of experience and hard work).

No two boats are identical, so why do you need an identical prop to someone else's? Why should someone that works to perfect their trade skills be denied an opportunity to profit when they finally get one just right? And why should someone else profit because they have the ability to copy the craftsman's work without paying the craftsman his fair share? These are my chief complaints about copying props. It's not about someone wanting a backup, but more about compensating the person that figured it out, when it does work. Just like the China copies take income away from the rightful designers and manufacturers, so does copying props. IMHO

SnoC653
04-17-2014, 02:55 PM
I like the idea of CNC props and the precision that brings to the game. I am just not a fan of copying. But we've pretty much beat that horse to death.

So let's get back to raising GN7's blood pressure. He must be counting to 100 to cool off before reposting, so this could take a while. :pound:

Mitch
04-17-2014, 04:41 PM
Grose doesnt copy props to sell to the masses if you have a prop stock or worked you can digitize it and keep it on file until you need one if you hand work a prop there is no way to duplicate it exact by hand but a digitized CNC is damn close as GN 7 stated no 2 standard props are the same , no standard prop manufactuer is going to duplicate anything .Grose has their own design stuff that seems to work well.

Sharp shooter
04-17-2014, 05:06 PM
Why didn't you just say Kindsvater.... This whole prop thing sounds just like more old-school v-drive black magic voodoo mumbo-jumbo.

Sometimes it does seem like black magic. A prop that works on one boat sometimes doesn't on another and the boats can be rigged the same. When you finally settle on a prop, you'll never know if a better one is out there unless you try "all of them". lol

2manymustangs
04-18-2014, 02:32 PM
:popcorn:





Why didn't you just say Kindsvater.... This whole prop thing sounds just like more old-school v-drive black magic voodoo mumbo-jumbo. I don't know any of these prop builders, but I give credit to these Grose guys for trying to get this bullshit into the right century, that's for sure.


:thumbsUp: Imagine a serious drag race program trying to deal with the multitude of variables from TOTALLY hand worked/finished props and going through 6-8 props in a season...

2manymustangs
04-18-2014, 03:14 PM
Yeah but, not everyone is trying to rotate the world. I would say most are just trying to get their moneys worth. We're talking shafts here, right? So let's talk this material from different countries thing, because that's what really started this right? If anyone who thinks there's a difference in material from a mill in Italy to Germany to USA etc, they need to do their homework. Any material coming from a G7 country is made to the same standards, period. Now the jackhole thrufeeding the barstock on the centerless is a different story, but the material is the same.

Fixed it for you... :wink2:

P.S. the thought of ANY precision piece of work going on a centerless grinder makes me shutter... :schreck: Not sure what BETTER alternatives there are but MANoMAN have I seen some Scheiße come off of centerless grinders, and then the customers wanted me to run it through my swiss type sliding headstock and make a precision piece... :hilarious:

2manymustangs
04-18-2014, 03:33 PM
Yeah, now where are we supposed to get titanium from.

Orthopedic surgeons... :D

ogshotgun
04-19-2014, 01:06 AM
Funny how some people are so adamant about not copying some thing some one else did,,,lol this is fn ludicrous look at the wheel first designed by the cave man, now 1000 of companys make them.. or the car first car ever built and every fn car after that is a copy slightly changed but a copy,,welcome to reality as some one else said if you don't want your shit copied don't sell it or let any body else ever see it , very simple,we copy , refine and copy its what people do period.

SnoC653
04-20-2014, 12:46 PM
Funny how some people are so adamant about not copying some thing some one else did,,,lol this is fn ludicrous look at the wheel first designed by the cave man, now 1000 of companys make them.. or the car first car ever built and every fn car after that is a copy slightly changed but a copy,,welcome to reality as some one else said if you don't want your shit copied don't sell it or let any body else ever see it , very simple,we copy , refine and copy its what people do period.

There is a huge difference between seeing a concept and developing your own product based on the concept, and copying the product because it works and you are too lazy or are incapable of making a better product. Those who lack inititive and ambition don't know the sting of someone stealing the credit or profit from their hard work. Most of those same people lack the concept of its better to do the hard right, than the easy wrong.

Its not really funny. Its actually kind of sad. But, it does speak volumes about the people that do and don't get it.

ptc
04-21-2014, 02:09 PM
Snoc I KNOW you'll argue the point but Reverse Engineering is not simply to COPY....

Reverse engineering has its origins in the analysis of hardware for commercial or military advantage.[2] The purpose is to deduce design decisions from end products with little or no additional knowledge about the procedures involved in the original production. The same techniques can be used for research of systems applications, not for industrial or defense ends, but rather to replace incorrect, incomplete, or otherwise unavailable documentation or design information.

So if you were to "engineer" something new than it would be a new design.... somebody comes along and disassembles the product in order to put it back together a different way is "reverse engineering" in that you will always 'find' a better way to do something if you are capable in the least to make things work. Whether its a mechanical object or simply a SOO... (Sequence of Operation) for doing a procedure or process in a more timely manner.

Reverse engineering really means Re-engineering something to make it better or more cost efficient or something that hopefully the changes create something different than what you started with....


And Bob.... Lighten up FRANCIS!!!!! .....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnpkDWbeJs

SnoC653
04-21-2014, 06:43 PM
PTC, I realize the traditional definition of reverse engineering. However, some 3-D copying services refer to the process of 3-D copying as reverse engineering (But, I think I've already said that). After the 3-D copying is complete they can then render a copy of the copied part using CNC machines or 3-D printers , thus completing the reverse engineering process.

And yes in the traditional sense, reverse engineering was traditionally done to save development costs and garner a greater profit margin for the unscrupulous company that would copy someone else's work. And no, improving a concept isn't copying it. Regardless, making exact copies of a proven design by making a 3-D scan of it and then rendering the product is reverse engineering even if you make it with allegedly better materials.

ogshotgun
04-21-2014, 08:35 PM
PTC, I realize the traditional definition of reverse engineering. However, some 3-D copying services refer to the process of 3-D copying as reverse engineering (But, I think I've already said that). After the 3-D copying is complete they can then render a copy of the copied part using CNC machines or 3-D printers , thus completing the reverse engineering process.

And yes in the traditional sense, reverse engineering was traditionally done to save development costs and garner a greater profit margin for the unscrupulous company that would copy someone else's work. And no, improving a concept isn't copying it. Regardless, making exact copies of a proven design by making a 3-D scan of it and then rendering the product is reverse engineering even if you make it with allegedly better materials.
I believe you said you were making a new cavitation plate for your boat . thats copying what a company made and , yet you have no problem with doing that, did you source the original person who designed that plate and pay them royalties? i doubt it... same shit applies

SnoC653
04-22-2014, 08:59 AM
I believe you said you were making a new cavitation plate for your boat . thats copying what a company made and , yet you have no problem with doing that, did you source the original person who designed that plate and pay them royalties? i doubt it... same shit applies

I am making plates for my boat. I am not copying the plates that were on it. The new plates will have different hardware locations and different hole locations/numbers for attaching it to the boat. Yes they will use the same basic dimensions (since they are limited to hull width, but exact length may vary, metal type and thickness will vary). Does that sound like a copy (3-D scan model ready to be fed into a CNC machine and then duplicated) to you?

Again, there is a huge difference between using a non-patented concept to make your own and making an exact copy of someone else's work and charging someone for it.

gn7
04-22-2014, 10:46 AM
I see snoc is still making senseless comments on a subject he knows nothing about.

SnoC653
04-22-2014, 01:04 PM
I see snoc is still making senseless comments on a subject he knows nothing about.

Look who's back. Did you catch a couple meetings and now feel qualified to post again? I see you are still spewing BS instead of facts. Are you sure I don't know anything about design infringement? Of course you're not, but it sure sounds good when you don't have anything to refute the facts with. There is a legal and an ethical difference between copying and developing your own. Since you generally seem to lack intelligent thoughts of your own, I'm sure you wouldn't know the difference between original and someone else's work.

gn7
04-22-2014, 01:22 PM
Look who's back. Did you catch a couple meetings and now feel qualified to post again? I see you are still spewing BS instead of facts. Are you sure I don't know anything about design infringement? Of course you're not, but it sure sounds good when you don't have anything to refute the facts with. There is a legal and an ethical difference between copying and developing your own. Since you generally seem to lack intelligent thoughts of your own, I'm sure you wouldn't know the difference between original and someone else's work.

Fact, from Nov 2012 to April 2013, I bought, tested, modified, retest, re-modified more props than you ever owned in total. We sold off 6 of them as near useless to us. And you THINK you are qualitied to tell me what the fuck reverse engineering is in prop. I can GUANATEE YOU, THAT WE WON THE 2012 CHAMPIUONSHIP ON THE PROP MORE THAN ANY SINGLE FACTOR. Please explain to me you fucking moron, the INTEL gathered in all that belong to the prop maker, the guy(s) that tweeked them, or ME? You fucking delusional asshole

You ONLY get into these discussions and spread your useless diatribe because somehow you think it makes your presence relative. What a fucking joke,

SnoC653
04-22-2014, 02:40 PM
Hey Einstein, reverse engineering applies to more than props. Nobody is designing the props they are copying, they are simply copying someone else's work and selling it for a profit. Why do you think most companies that do 3-D copying make a fuss about making only 1 copy for the original owner so they can have one backup copy. Copying other people's products is a very strictly defined legal nightmare. And in civil court, it's not beyond a doubt, it's a preponderance of the evidence. But, you know that, since you think you know everything. If you think my info is incorrect, ask our resident lawyer.

Oh wait, that would be like using facts. Like the fact, you didn't test anything, your driver tested the props. You apparently lack a certain part of your anatomy required to race a boat yourself. But, keep calling yourself a racer, it sounds better than loud mouth.

gn7
04-22-2014, 04:15 PM
Hey Einstein, reverse engineering applies to more than props. Nobody is designing the props they are copying, they are simply copying someone else's work and selling it for a profit. Why do you think most companies that do 3-D copying make a fuss about making only 1 copy for the original owner so they can have one backup copy. Copying other people's products is a very strictly defined legal nightmare. And in civil court, it's not beyond a doubt, it's a preponderance of the evidence. But, you know that, since you think you know everything. If you think my info is incorrect, ask our resident lawyer.

Oh wait, that would be like using facts. Like the fact, you didn't test anything, your driver tested the props. You apparently lack a certain part of your anatomy required to race a boat yourself. But, keep calling yourself a racer, it sounds better than loud mouth.

I will ask one more fucking time, are the props I had worked, the makers, the tuners or MINE?? Answer the fucking question genius?

I wouldn't talk about racing a boat. The closest you have come is a piece of worn out fiberglass on a trailer you aren't allowed to build. Talk about lacking some nuts

SnoC653
04-22-2014, 04:24 PM
I will ask one more fucking time, are the props I had worked, the makers, the tuners or MINE?? Answer the fucking question genius?

I wouldn't talk about racing a boat. The closest you have come is a piece of worn out fiberglass on a trailer you aren't allowed to build. Talk about lacking some nuts

You have to learn to answer questions before you get answers. And lack of budget due to other priorities is way different than your lack of testicles. You supposedly own a running race boat. But, your butt won't be found in the seat during anything resembling a race now will it?

gn7
04-22-2014, 04:59 PM
You have to learn to answer questions before you get answers. And lack of budget due to other priorities is way different than your lack of testicles. You supposedly own a running race boat. But, your butt won't be found in the seat during anything resembling a race now will it?

And your never ending bullshit that you EVER will is no better, POSER. Grow a set and tell the snake you're building the fucking boat. You lack the sack to build it or race it, so make up shit as you go along

HotWater
04-22-2014, 05:11 PM
Bwahahah, this guy Snoc is funny! Your lack of budget is because your too p whipped to ask "momma" for the money to finish your K. Find your sack and finish that thing already. Then you can race and wont have to offer up your motor to someone else so they can race me. Hurry up, 2016 is coming quick, or is that your next excuse? I really do wanna see you out there, we need more boat's running.

SnoC653
04-22-2014, 05:41 PM
Bwahahah, this guy Snoc is funny! Your lack of budget is because your too p whipped to ask "momma" for the money to finish your K. Find your sack and finish that thing already. Then you can race and wont have to offer up your motor to someone else so they can race me. Hurry up, 2016 is coming quick, or is that your next excuse? I really do wanna see you out there, we need more boat's running.

I have no lack of things to spend money on. And just because the boat isn't the priority right now, doesn't mean I don't spend my fair chunk of the cash. Lets see in the last 4 days, $550 on my two horses (shots, shoes, and teeth floated), then add private pilot check ride (examiner + plane rental), added in a 200 X 50 garden, and a bunch of other projects around the place like working on new fences, building a green house, putting in a creek crossing (none of which are done but all of them take money). And that is only the discretionary spending. Since I'm playing student pilot while enjoying retirement, I'm not making any play with the boat money. So, I'm not spending any on the boat. At least none to speak of.

But, I am aware of the 2016 deadline and the boat is inching forward. As for loaning someone the engine, I'd pull it out of the boat for someone even if the boat ran and someone really needed it. Racing is a hobby, not a life's endeavor. My world doesn't revolve around racing. It is just another hobby I like.

ogshotgun
04-22-2014, 06:05 PM
I am making plates for my boat. I am not copying the plates that were on it. The new plates will have different hardware locations and different hole locations/numbers for attaching it to the boat. Yes they will use the same basic dimensions (since they are limited to hull width, but exact length may vary, metal type and thickness will vary). Does that sound like a copy (3-D scan model ready to be fed into a CNC machine and then duplicated) to you?

Again, there is a huge difference between using a non-patented concept to make your own and making an exact copy of someone else's work and charging someone for it.

so since your making a copy and doing a very slight change its okay because your doing it, but if i take a prop and do a slight change the world ends ... your not on earth