The Return of the most infamous HB thread of all time... :D

[Tishimself]

I give you....the Airplane on a treadmill thread.

Question: If you put an airplane on a treadmill, and start the treadmill up, so that the wheels under the plane are turning, and then gun the engine(s) will it take off??? :D:D

[SBS933]

Only if it gained more airspeed than the speed of the treadmill.

[Tishimself]

Only if it gained more airspeed than the speed of the treadmill.

Only if the power to weight ratio is off the charts.... ;)

[SnoC653]

Of course it will take off. But it better be one very long treadmill. The only thing the plane has to over come is the drag of the wheel bearings and tires from the weight of the plane with no lift on the wings. This is a very minute portion of the engine's capabilities but it would still increase the distance required to travel in order to take off. Once the plane started to move forward and generate lift, it would accelerate faster and faster until it generated enough lift to fly. It takes airspeed to generate lift, not tire speed. So if it takes 68 knots to generate enough lift to fly normally, it would still take 68 knots of forward airspeed, not tire speed to generate the lift required to fly regardless of how fast the tires were spinning.

[SBS933]

Of course it will take off. But it better be one very long treadmill. The only thing the plane has to over come is the drag of the wheel bearings and tires from the weight of the plane with no lift on the wings. This is a very minute portion of the engine's capabilities but it would still increase the distance required to travel in order to take off. Once the plane started to move forward and generate lift, it would accelerate faster and faster until it generated enough lift to fly. It takes airspeed to generate lift, not tire speed. So if it takes 68 knots to generate enough lift to fly normally, it would still take 68 knots of forward airspeed, not tire speed to generate the lift required to fly regardless of how fast the tires were spinning. What he said.

[Tishimself]

What he said.

But heres the deal. The speed of the plane is a product of the wheels. So if you take the ability of the wheels to turn power into speed, I.e. you negate any ability of the plane to achieve any kind of forward motion, you will never ever take off. Unless you have a jet engine attached to a glider. :D

[Ziggy]

With Mythbusters proving its possible the question is mute.:D...beside the fact that the wheels on a plane have nothing to do with the speed or motion of it, like the speed of a skateboard has everything to do with how hard you push it .:)

From my POS T-mobile thingie

[Wheeler]

I considered Bre's box one of the most infamous threads of all time. Might have been before your time though.:secret:

[Tishimself]

With Mythbusters proving its possible the question is mute.:D...beside the fact that the wheels on a plane have nothing to do with the speed or motion of it, like the speed of a skateboard has everything to do with how hard you push it .:)

From my POS T-mobile thingie

Myth busters did it with a piper cub. Barely an airplane. All engine, paper and wood. The power to weight ratio was off the charts. The original thread dealt with the idea of a 747 on a treadmill. So lets keep this conversation limited to a real plane. Not toys that are one step above an RC plane..... ;)

[Wheeler]

But heres the deal. The speed of the plane is a product of the wheels.

The wheels are not powered, the propeller is. What if we take the wheels off and use floats in their place and point the plane up river

[Ziggy]

I considered Bre's box one of the most infamous threads of all time. Might have been before your time though.:secret:

Man o man were her early posts during the Andy years classic......butt plugs and all:eek::D:p:eek:


From my POS T-mobile thingie

[Ziggy]

Myth busters did it with a piper cub. Barely an airplane. All engine, paper and wood. The power to weight ratio was off the charts. The original thread dealt with the idea of a 747 on a treadmill. So lets keep this conversation limited to a real plane. Not toys that are one step above an RC plane..... ;)

No matter how you scale it, the properties are still the same.

From my POS T-mobile thingie

[Tishimself]

The wheels are not powered, the propeller is. What if we take the wheels off and use floats in their place and point the plane up river


Sorry, for the purposes of this argument, it has to be limited to wheels only. But tell me, with out wheels, how does the prop move forward. If they are turning 100mph due to the movement of the treadmill, how are you ever going to move forward when you can maybe generate 100mph without the treadmill...??

[Wheeler]

Man o man were her early posts during the Andy years classic......butt plugs and all:eek::D:p:eek:



A friend has those pix and more, he's trying to get 'em out the the old modem now. I hear that Tom Brown is working on the old system trying to retrieve them for us all to see again, Right Here on Hot Boat!!:eek:

Then again, While talking with Tom today he mentioned that Wendi banned him for this site. Too much competition I guess. :D

[ChumpChange]

Bre and Foxy99!!!!!!!!!

[Ziggy]

Those pics should stay in the long lost files, honestly. Not something that would be productive today.....but the memories will be lasting til alzheimer sets in.
God bless the Canatard:)

From my POS T-mobile thingie

[Tishimself]

Those pics should stay in the long lost files, honestly. Not something that would be productive today.....but the memories will be lasting til alzheimer sets in.
God bless the Canatard:)

From my POS T-mobile thingie

Not too sure that they would jive so well with the new and improved "family Friendly" Hotboat, but feel free to text them to me.... :D

[Wheeler]

Sorry, for the purposes of this argument, it has to be limited to wheels only. But tell me, with out wheels, how does the prop move forward. If they are turning 100mph due to the movement of the treadmill, how are you ever going to move forward when you can maybe generate 100mph without the treadmill...??It will need to overcome any drag induced by an outside source and when the plane reaches V2 it will be off. And safely I might add.

[Wheeler]

Those pics should stay in the long lost files, honestly. Not something that would be productive today.....but the memories will be lasting til alzheimer sets in.God bless the Canatard:)From my POS T-mobile thingie

It's history man and you cant' stop something that has already happened! They're coming!! I'm sure there are plenty of people that will allow Tom to use there login info. for this little bit of history. :gathering:

The neighbor girl gave me a little white pill, said it would help me sleep. At the first sign of dizziness I decided to come back home and lock my doors, she's bigger than me!! I wish I had my pit bull about now!

31327313283132931330313313133231333313343133531336 31337313383133931340313413134231343313443134531346 31347313483134931350313513135231353313543135531356

[SnoC653]

Sorry, for the purposes of this argument, it has to be limited to wheels only. But tell me, with out wheels, how does the prop move forward. If they are turning 100mph due to the movement of the treadmill, how are you ever going to move forward when you can maybe generate 100mph without the treadmill...??

As mentioned, the wheels and their speed have nothing to do with lift. If lift plus thrust is greater than drag plus weight the plan will accelerate until they are equal or climb. And long before the drag of the wheels could overcome the thrust the plane will develops lift which will reduce that drag to nothing. Even a fully loaded 747 can climb at over 500 feet per minute. As soon as the wings start flying the treadmill becomes a none factor.

[Wheeler]

Tom broke the code and started sending pix!


31396313983139931400314013140231403314043140531406 314073140831409...........

[HB Vic]

LOL Wheeler. Actually Tom is not banned, I just checked.

[Eli]

Then again, While talking with Tom today he mentioned that Wendi banned him for this site. Too much competition I guess. :D

No competition there, Tom is definitely the bigger ass...err...has a bigger ass.


Sent from my Bat Cave

[Tishimself]

As mentioned, the wheels and their speed have nothing to do with lift. If lift plus thrust is greater than drag plus weight the plan will accelerate until they are equal or climb. And long before the drag of the wheels could overcome the thrust the plane will develops lift which will reduce that drag to nothing. Even a fully loaded 747 can climb at over 500 feet per minute. As soon as the wings start flying the treadmill becomes a none factor.

The lift only factors in if the plane is able to move. If the ability of the wheels to move the plane forward is negated through the treadmill, no air moves over the wing, no lift is created, no movement of any kind happens. Lift is caused by airflow over the wings. If there is no airflow, no one is going anywhere.

[WESTERNAERO]

The lift only factors in if the plane is able to move. If the ability of the wheels to move the plane forward is negated through the treadmill, no air moves over the wing, no lift is created, no movement of any kind happens. Lift is caused by airflow over the wings. If there is no airflow, no one is going anywhere.

Go back to driving trains Tish. :happy:

[nowski]

I give you....the Airplane on a treadmill thread.

Question: If you put an airplane on a treadmill, and start the treadmill up, so that the wheels under the plane are turning, and then gun the engine(s) will it take off??? :D:DOf course it will fly it all depends on how much you've had to drink or smoke...

[GRADS]

FYI: There are tits in the second picture in post #21, but a good moderator would of already caught that, deleted it and banned the poster for a week.

[ChumpChange]

FYI: There are tits in the second picture in post #21, but a good moderator would of already caught that, deleted it and banned the poster for a week.

You see that little triangle in the bottom left corner of every post? Click on that and it will send an email to the moderators along with a message of your choice. Other's use it without the drama factor, feel free to do the same.

[GRADS]

You see that little triangle in the bottom left corner of every post? Click on that and it will send an email to the moderators along with a message of your choice. Other's use it without the drama factor, feel free to do the same.

No Thanks, I prefer to call out Michael "Wheeler" Vick in front of everyone. It's also good to know that posting tits is not a bannable offense.

[ChumpChange]

No Thanks, I prefer to call out Michael "Wheeler" Vick in front of everyone. It's also good to know that posting tits is not a bannable offense.

:rolleyes

[WESTERNAERO]

No Thanks, I prefer to call out Michael "Wheeler" Vick in front of everyone. It's also good to know that posting tits is not a bannable offense.

What did I miss? Is Wheeler a Seattle fan also? :wink2:

[riverrunner1984]

I noticed but decided not to say anything since I enjoy looking a them even if it was from a distance lol.

[GRADS]

What did I miss? Is Wheeler a Seattle fan also? :wink2:

Michael "Wheeler" Vick enjoys watching dogs fight and die.

[Tishimself]

Go back to driving trains Tish. :happy:

Sure, but the plane wont fly. Period. Not a normal plane. If it has no way to move forward, it has no way to fly.

[WESTERNAERO]

Sure, but the plane wont fly. Period. Not a normal plane. If it has no way to move forward, it has no way to fly.

Motorized plane or a glider?

[ChumpChange]

Michael "Wheeler" Vick enjoys watching dogs fight and die.

So what did I miss in that video. Dog(Pit Bull) attacks horse, horse kicks dog. Wheeler sucks? Now you keep attacking Wheeler because he posted the video which he did not film but suddenly makes him Michael Vick, who made the dogs fight?

[GRADS]

So what did I miss in that video. Dog(Pit Bull) attacks horse, horse kicks dog. Wheeler sucks? Now you keep attacking Wheeler because he posted the video which he did not film but suddenly makes him Michael Vick, who made the dogs fight?

Yep, times 10. He also admitted to dog fighting which he called a "sport".

[ChumpChange]

Yep, times 10. He also admitted to dog fighting which he called a "sport". I've got a new sport...it's called knock Wheeler the fuck out.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/23/uzedyne5.jpg

Let's keep the personal threats off the internet here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[gn7]

A plane forward motion is independent of the surface is sitting on. Its not a car on rollers. It doesn't need the surface to remain still for it move forward. A plane pulls itself thru the AIR, not push itself along with the wheels on a stationary surface. It moves forward RELATIVE TO THE AIR not the tread mill.

Like snoc said, but confused it with a bunch friction bullshit. You just need a tread mill long enough. But the plane IS going to screw itself forward THRU THE AIR regardless if its on a treadmill.
Lets keep our eyes on the ball here, The plane does need the ground to move forward on, whether its flying or not, its irrelevant.

[Tishimself]

A plane forward motion is independent of the surface is sitting on. Its not a car on rollers. It doesn't need the surface to remain still for it move forward. A plane pulls itself thru the AIR, not push itself along with the wheels on a stationary surface. It moves forward RELATIVE TO THE AIR not the tread mill.

Like snoc said, but confused it with a bunch friction bullshit. You just need a tread mill long enough. But the plane IS going to screw itself forward THRU THE AIR regardless if its on a treadmill.
Lets keep our eyes on the ball here, The plane does need the ground to move forward on, whether its flying or not, its irrelevant.

Ok....lets get it straight here. Here is the way this works. Take the plane and set it on the treadmill. Turn on the treadmill and spin it up so that the wheels on the plane are turning, just as if it is taxiing. As you increase the power on the jet engines, the speed of the treadmill increases also. As time goes by, the treadmill is spinning the wheels at 300+mph. Maybe faster. This counters the wheels ability to turn thrust into movement. If the plane can not move forward, it can not generate lift across the flight surfaces of the wing. Hard as the engines "screw" themselves through the air, they cannot overcome the negative forces generated by the treadmill turning in the opposite direction. Which brings into the conversation the third law of physics which states that "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". This argument was always limited to jet powered aircraft, as a plane with the prop in the nose will generate airflow over the wing surfaces through prop wash. Same with planes with engines in the wings such as a King Air. (my favorite plane). But for aircraft with an engine under the wing, with thrust generated after the wing surfaces, ( a jet) there is no source for air over the flight surfaces, because no movement can be generated because the wheels have no ability to roll the aircraft forward. Remember, as the aircraft moves, the speed of the treadmill increases till the speed returns to a zero indicator. Got it? :D:D:D

And I honestly don't believe the engines generate enough thrust to launch the plane into the air from a zero start. I forget what the takeoff speed it for a 747 but if the wheels are spinning faster than that...it can not overcome the negative effects of the treadmill.

[gn7]

OK. lets get it straight here. Here is the way it works. Take the plane, set it on the treadmill. turn on the treadmill, spin it up so that the wheels on the plane are turning, just as if it is taxiing. AS you increase the power on the jet engines, the speed of the treadmill increases also. AS time goes by, the treadmill is spinning the wheels at 300+mph. Maybe faster. This counters the wheels ability to turn thrust into movement through the wheels. IF the plane can not move forward, it can not generate lift across the flight surfaces of the wing. Hard as the engines "screw" themselves through the air, they cannot overcome the negative forces generated by the treadmill turning in the opposite direction. Which brings in law of physics which states that "For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction". This argument was always limited to jet powered aircraft, as a plane with the prop in the nose generate airflow over the wing surfaces through prop wash. Same with planes with engines on the wings. Such as a King Air. (my favorite plane). But for aircraft with an engine under the wing, with thrust generated after the wing surfaces, ( a jet) there is no source for air over the flight surfaces, because no movement can be generated because the wheels have no ability to roll the aircraft forfard. Remember, as the aircraft moves, the speed of the treadmill increases till the speed returns to a zero indicator. Got it? :D:D:D

Did you read what you wrote here. You want to take another shot that? That's hilarious.

[WESTERNAERO]

OK. lets get it straight here. Here is the way it works. Take the plane, set it on the treadmill. turn on the treadmill, spin it up so that the wheels on the plane are turning, just as if it is taxiing. AS you increase the power on the jet engines, the speed of the treadmill increases also. AS time goes by, the treadmill is spinning the wheels at 300+mph. Maybe faster. This counters the wheels ability to turn thrust into movement through the wheels. IF the plane can not move forward, it can not generate lift across the flight surfaces of the wing. Hard as the engines "screw" themselves through the air, they cannot overcome the negative forces generated by the treadmill turning in the opposite direction. Which brings in law of physics which states that "For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction". This argument was always limited to jet powered aircraft, as a plane with the prop in the nose generate airflow over the wing surfaces through prop wash. Same with planes with engines on the wings. Such as a King Air. (my favorite plane). But for aircraft with an engine under the wing, with thrust generated after the wing surfaces, ( a jet) there is no source for air over the flight surfaces, because no movement can be generated because the wheels have no ability to roll the aircraft forfard. Remember, as the aircraft moves, the speed of the treadmill increases till the speed returns to a zero indicator. Got it? :D:D:D

And what asshole did you pull this out of? You must of heard this on Big Bang Theory, Right?

[HB Vic]

Aircraft (prop or jet) generate thrust. They pull themselves through air. Bernoulli's principal and the wing allows them to fly.

The speed the wheels are turning or the direction they're turning is irrelevant.

[2manymustangs]

AS you increase the power on the jet engines, the speed of the treadmill increases also. AS time goes by, the treadmill is spinning the wheels at 300+mph. Maybe faster.

Why? Why do you say the treadmills is spinning the wheels faster and faster?


Lets start with some "ground" rules, what is the FIXED speed of your treadmill? Tishimself, lets make it interesting:

The treadmill is ONE MILE LONG, fixed speed of 6MPH (ten minute mile)
The engines on the aero-plane are NOT running
There is a cliff at both ends that drops to the abyss and the plane is sitting at the FAR end and has one mile / ten minutes to throttle UP and get airborn...

OR else...

Press GO and the airplane is now moving in reverse at 6MPH...

Now what???

[Tishimself]

Aircraft (prop or jet) generate thrust. They pull themselves through air. Bernoulli's principal and the wing allows them to fly.

The speed the wheels are turning or the direction they're turning is irrelevant.

Well, lets look at it from a different direction. Lets look at the landing gear as being the same as roller skates on your feet. If your on a treadmill with skates on, the only way you can move forward is by holding onto a stationary object. I.E. and handle bar, or a rope. Otherwise, you might roll back, actually. That's what the air is for the plane. It's a rope or stationary object that it grabs onto and pulls itself forward, unlike the tires on a car for instance. Which lets it move forward regardless of wheel speed. Right? Sorta. As you move forward, the treadmill speed increases, meaning you have to work harder to keep moving forward due to increased friction between the wheels of your skates and the treadmill. As the speeds increase, so does the strength needed to pull yourself forward. Sooner or later, it's just too much work, and you stop moving forward. This is the same with the plane, it can only pull forward so hard, and then that's it. Same here. Everyone concentrates on the wheels, and not the forces themselves at work here. The wheels are only the instrument with which the engines transmit thrust into movement. They are not powered.

[Boatnaked]

Those pics should stay in the long lost files, honestly. Not something that would be productive today.....but the memories will be lasting til alzheimer sets in.
God bless the Canatard:)

From my POS T-mobile thingie
I have to agree with Ziggy! those that were let into the Box were trusted not to re-post the pixs anywhere else, and great memories is an under statement, but I would have to admit I wouldn't mind seeing them one more time!

[Tishimself]

Why? Why do you say the treadmills is spinning the wheels faster and faster?


Lets start with some "ground" rules, what is the FIXED speed of your treadmill? Tishimself, lets make it interesting:

The treadmill is ONE MILE LONG, fixed speed of 6MPH (ten minute mile)
The engines on the aero-plane are NOT running
There is a cliff at both ends that drops to the abyss and the plane is sitting at the FAR end and has one mile / ten minutes to throttle UP and get airborn...

OR else...

Press GO and the airplane is now moving in reverse at 6MPH...

Now what???

The fallacy of your logic (as I see it at least), is that you're forgetting something. The wheels of the airplane are connected to the plane, and friction exists between the runway (conveyor belt) and the wheels.

For the plane to take off, it has to reach a certain airspeed - the speed at which the air passing over the wing is enough to create lift. In order for the plane, which is on the ground, to reach a forward speed, its wheels would need to be travelling in a net forward direction. In order for this to happen, their speed would have to be GREATER than that of the belt running beneath them.

If, as the above indicates, the speeds are ALWAYS equal, then the plane will not move.

[2manymustangs]

The fallacy of your logic (as I see it at least), is that you're forgetting something. The wheels of the airplane are connected to the plane, and friction exists between the runway (conveyor belt) and the wheels.

For the plane to take off, it has to reach a certain airspeed - the speed at which the air passing over the wing is enough to create lift. In order for the plane, which is on the ground, to reach a forward speed, its wheels would need to be travelling in a net forward direction. In order for this to happen, their speed would have to be GREATER than that of the belt running beneath them.

If, as the above indicates, the speeds are ALWAYS equal, then the plane will not move.

DO you agree with the framework OR do you want to pick a speed?

[Tishimself]

DO you agree with the framework OR do you want to pick a speed?


There is no set speed. They (no matter the number) should always be equal.

[WESTERNAERO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YORCk1BN7QY
Now STFU!
Says it right there in the video. Wheel speed has nothing to do with air speed.

[gn7]

DO you agree with the framework OR do you want to pick a speed?

I am ashamed of you Bruce. The speed is irrelevant. There is an underlying physical property here that he is depending on, and he keeps it a constant in his head, regardless if the physics are there to back it up. Its a hypothetical no rules question. Its BENCH RACING at its finest. You can't win, because the "tread mill won't let you, regardless if the tread mill is real or fantasy. Its what Tish "sees" the tread mill doing, regardless if a REAL tread mill would actually do what he sees.

Its a mind game, its hypothetical.

Snoc had this dead on, his wording was a little twisted. But I see what he was eluding to. tish would never allow that in the hypothetical mind game.

I can have Tish twisting and doing the mmmm and aaaaa in one post. But he will give the ole Obama spin and make the hypothetical physics win out.

[Tishimself]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YORCk1BN7QY
Now STFU!
Says it right there in the video. Wheel speed has nothing to do with air speed.

That is an incorrect example as it was originally asked. Because the plane has the engine in the nose, it's an ultralight, and it has a thrust to weight ratio almost equivalent to that of an RC aircraft that test was a joke, and they made fools of themselves. It was also able to generate wind over the wings. The original aircraft was a 747.

[HB Vic]

Here's the answer to the question no matter how you phrase it.

If the plane stays in the same place, relative to the ground, it will not take off.

If the plane moves, it will take off.

[2manymustangs]

There is no set speed. They (no matter the number) should always be equal.

But there is a set speed... HOw fast is your treadmill? 6 minute mile or 10 minute mile? and remember, the treadmill is only one mile long, then off into the abyss...

What does the treadmill represent? the rotation of the earth?

[Tishimself]

But there is a set speed... HOw fast is your treadmill? 6 minute mile or 10 minute mile? and remember, the treadmill is only one mile long, then off into the abyss...

What does the treadmill represent? the rotation of the earth?

There is no set speed for the treadmill. It can go as fast as it needs to in order to counter any forward movement of the plane. Remember, the moment the wheels start turning faster than the treadmill, the plane will move, once they are spinning at the same speed, the plane will stop. Since the wheels will not ever be able to spin faster than the treadmill, the plane can not move. As for what it represents. Nothing. Its just the instrument used to illustrate this version of the question.

[Cat & Mice]

I posted in the original HB thread and said it will still take off.

I am a pilot, although I have not flown by myself for over 20 years LOL

The type of plane does not matter, its not like the plane in the Myth buster episode can push enough air over the wings from the prop to fly, if it did then it could take off vertically. Which it can not.

The only issue is if the wheels can not spin twice as fast as the take off speed of the plane. If they can then you will take off regardless of if its a Piper Cub or a 747. In other words if take off speed is 100mph then the wheels need to be able to handle 200mph on the treadmill scenario.

MP

[gn7]

But there is a set speed... HOw fast is your treadmill? 6 minute mile or 10 minute mile? and remember, the treadmill is only one mile long, then off into the abyss...

What does the treadmill represent? the rotation of the earth?
Fuck the speed, its irrelevant, and you DO NOT NEED SOME TOP SPEED to have the plane take off. You are beginning to sound like him. He already told you, the treadmills top speed match the plane's. Well duh, of course he did. But it still DOES NOT MATTER!!! That's not whats play here. Go read snoc's post over again, and think about you or a car or a top fuel dragster in a treadmill, and then an airplane. Then you MIGHT get it. MIGHT is the operative word here. I am not counting on it though.

[gn7]

I posted in the original HB thread and said it will still take off.

I am a pilot, although I have not flown by myself for over 20 years LOL

The type of plane does not matter, its not like the plane in the Myth buster episode can push enough air over the wings from the prop to fly, if it did then it could take off vertically. Which it can not. The only issue is if the wheels can not spin twice as fast as the take off speed of the plane. If they can then you will take off regardless of if its a Piper Cub or a 747. In other words if take off speed is 100mph then the wheels need to be able to handle 200mph on the treadmill scenario.

MP


ding ding ding ding!!!!

Tell the man what he won






A free chicken dinner.

[Tishimself]

I posted in the original HB thread and said it will still take off.

I am a pilot, although I have not flown by myself for over 20 years LOL

The type of plane does not matter, its not like the plane in the Myth buster episode can push enough air over the wings from the prop to fly, if it did then it could take off vertically. Which it can not.

The only issue is if the wheels can not spin twice as fast as the take off speed of the plane. If they can then you will take off regardless of if its a Piper Cub or a 747. In other words if take off speed is 100mph then the wheels need to be able to handle 200mph on the treadmill scenario.

MP

There is no top speed for the treadmill. It can turn as fast as it needs to in order to counter the wheels. 200, 400, 1000...no limit. The plane in the example has a power to weight ratio off the charts. If that guy wanted, he could take off from a standing start with a 5 foot taxi. It is absolutely possible for a propped plane to take from a standing start. That's what the plane in the example is designed to do...watch this....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsIzCqAQOck

[WESTERNAERO]

That is an incorrect example as it was originally asked. Because the plane has the engine in the nose, it's an ultralight, and it has a thrust to weight ratio almost equivalent to that of an RC aircraft that test was a joke, and they made fools of themselves. It was also able to generate wind over the wings. The original aircraft was a 747.

I give up. Think what you want.

[Tishimself]

Fuck the speed, its irrelevant, and you DO NOT NEED SOME TOP SPEED to have the plane take off. You are beginning to sound like him. He already told you, the treadmills top speed match the plane's. Well duh, of course he did. But it still DOES NOT MATTER!!! That's not whats play here. Go read snoc's post over again, and think about you or a car or a top fuel dragster in a treadmill, and then an airplane. Then you MIGHT get it. MIGHT is the operative word here. I am not counting on it though.

Don't yell at me. This example is all about Newton's third law. AS long as the wheels of the plane are turning faster than the treadmill, it will take off. When the two numbers match, it will not move forward. Get over it. Planes use air to grab a hold of, cars use the road. Two completely different scenarios. One does not equivocate to the other.

[2manymustangs]

There is no set speed for the treadmill. It can go as fast as it needs to in order to counter any forward movement of the plane. Remember, the moment the wheels start turning faster than the treadmill, the plane will move, once they are spinning at the same speed, the plane will stop. Since the wheels will not ever be able to spin faster than the treadmill, the plane can not move. As for what it represents. Nothing. Its just the instrument used to illustrate this version of the question.

THRUST is going to move the plane foward (either jet or SCREWING ITSELF through the air)... I'm just trying to find out how fast you have the plane going backwards on the pretend treadmill... I wanna know how long (not IF but WHEN) it will take me to lift off as soon as I start making thrust, without any thrust the wheels are glued to the treadmill belt just like the aero-plane is and she is going backwards...

[Tishimself]

THRUST is going to move the plane foward (either jet or SCREWING ITSELF through the air)... I'm just trying to find out how fast you have the plane going backwards on the pretend treadmill... I wanna know how long (not IF but WHEN) it will take me to lift off as soon as I start making thrust, without any thrust the wheels are glued to the treadmill belt just like the aero-plane is and she is going backwards...

Let's say for the sake of argument, that the engines on a jet propel it forward at 800 miles per hour (I have no idea how fast they really go, but bear with me here). Now imagine that the plane is sitting on a really long conveyor belt. Both the belt and the plane are stationary, and the jet engines are off. Now, imagine that the conveyor belt starts moving at 800 mph. Seeing that the plane's engines are off, the plane gets dragged backward at 800 mph by the belt.

Now, if the pilot fires up those engines, that 800 mph of force is only going to counteract the backwards-moving conveyor belt, right? 800 mph in one direction less 800 mph in the other direction equals 0 mph. So, the plane sits stationary as the conveyor belt goes by beneath it.

If the plane isn't moving, then the air isn't moving above and beneath the wing at the required 800 mph, thus creating no lift. And that's that.

[niceguyeddie]

This was a great thread! It was my favorite next to "GOD IS FAKE"

[2manymustangs]

Let's say for the sake of argument, that the engines on a jet propel it forward at 800 miles per hour (I have no idea how fast they really go, but bear with me here). Now imagine that the plane is sitting on a really long conveyor belt. Both the belt and the plane are stationary, and the jet engines are off. Now, imagine that the conveyor belt starts moving at 800 mph. Seeing that the plane's engines are off, the plane gets dragged backward at 800 mph by the belt.

Now, if the pilot fires up those engines, that 800 mph of force is only going to counteract the backwards-moving conveyor belt, right? 800 mph in one direction less 800 mph in the other direction equals 0 mph. So, the plane sits stationary as the conveyor belt goes by beneath it.

If the plane isn't moving, then the air isn't moving above and beneath the wing at the required 800 mph, thus creating no lift. And that's that.

It will take a fraction of the TOTAL thrust to stop the plane from moving backward and start moving forward... Do I have one mile? How long is your "really long conveyor belt"???

At 800 MPH backward I don't have very long before I'm in the abyss...

[WESTERNAERO]

Tish, I said I was done, but now I really am. Read this. And stop trying to twist this into something you think is plausible.
http://www.airplaneonatreadmill.com/
Make sure you read the whole thing.

[Tishimself]

Tish, I said I was done, but now I really am. Read this. And stop trying to twist this into something you think is plausible.
http://www.airplaneonatreadmill.com/
Make sure you read the whole thing.

There are just as many peeps out there saying it will work as there are saying it wont. Don't have time to read, it, most likely I already have when I researched this subject way back when...LOL.... ;)

[gn7]

Don't yell at me. This example is all about Newton's third law. AS long as the wheels of the plane are turning faster than the treadmill, it will take off. When the two numbers match, it will not move forward. Get over it. Planes use air to grab a hold of, cars use the road. Two completely different scenarios. One does not equivocate to the other.

You are too funny. First it was converted thrust to the wheels in one post, now its AIR verses Surface. Your screwing yourself with you own posts. Its too funny. You know what you want to say, because you see it in you head, but you can make sense of it in words.

Like I said, its a hypothetical brain teaser that doesn't allow the plane to move forward on the hypothetical tread mill. None of which has anything to do with REAL physics.

[Tishimself]

It will take a fraction of the TOTAL thrust to stop the plane from moving backward and start moving forward... Do I have one mile? How long is your "really long conveyor belt"???

At 800 MPH backward I don't have very long before I'm in the abyss...

It never stated the length of it.

[2manymustangs]

It never stated the length of it.

Lets say that the conveyor is an infinite length... Is it a hard surface or squishy like grass/dirt AND are the wheels on the aero-plane rigid or soft/pneumatic???

DO you dispute that the thrust will in short order overcome the rolling resistance (once you start spinning up the jet) and will cause enough thrust to stop the backward motion of the airplane?

[Tishimself]

You are too funny. First it was converted thrust to the wheels in one post, now its AIR verses Surface. Your screwing yourself with you own posts. Its too funny. You know what you want to say, because you see it in you head, but you can make sense of it in words.

Like I said, its a hypothetical brain teaser that doesn't allow the plane to move forward on the hypothetical tread mill. None of which has anything to do with REAL physics.

It has everything to do with physics. Again, Newton's third law. Now , that said, I said in the beginning that the wheels transmit thrust through the landing gear to the wheelsets. You said no that's not it, it's the engines. So I came back and said it was the engines pulling air through them, they do not interact with the road in the same ways that a car does. Now I am contradicting myself. Not really. You keep thinking this has to do with the engines, I keep saying the engines are nothing without the wheels....LOL...you see? It's an endless pointless argument, but great fun to argue, because under the right circumstances, both sides are right. I owe you a beer...and you owe me one right back...... ;)

[2manymustangs]

Lets say that the conveyor is an infinite length... Is it a hard surface or squishy like grass/dirt AND are the wheels on the aero-plane rigid or soft/pneumatic???

DO you dispute that the thrust will in short order overcome the rolling resistance (once you start spinning up the jet) and will cause enough thrust to stop the backward motion of the airplane?

BUMP... Tishimself... CMon...

[gn7]

There are two factors at play here with this mind game, and Tish will twist them to fit his theory regardless, but in reality, he is trapped.

There can be two different types of treadmills. Motorized, or free moving. It matters not which we use here. So we will take on both, but the RULES apply to BOTH!

Free wheeling:
We have to assume an absolutely frictionless free wheeling treadmill. A man, dog, horse, bicycle, or top fuel dragster cannot move forward, Its impossible. At the same time, the treadmill will not move if they don't try to move forward. Its the attempt to move that moves the surface. None of them will fall off the tread mill, they just can't move. If a very stiff wind comes along, it can blow them right off the treadmill.
The plane does not need the surface to move forward. It can move forward and never have the treadmill move, except possibly in the same direction the plane is going because the tires drag it along. So now the treadmill, if moving, is going forward in the same direction. If it remains still, the plane moves. if it moves forward, the plane moves. But the plane CANNOT move the treadmill backward because there is no backward force to make it move that direction. The wheel are being dragged by the plane, and POSSIBLY the treadmill as well. The plane is not pushing off the tires, or the treadmill.

Motorized treadmill:

Tish, in his theoretical mind game, wants us to believe the plane has to rev the engine to stay on the tread mill or fall off. No different than any other motorized treadmill. EXCEPT, people, dogs, horses, and top fuel dragsters have 100% fricition that makes them need to "move" to stay on the mill. Stand there, and off you go.
However, our hypothetical plane, gets the same 100% frictionless bearing that were in the above freewheeling treadmill. If the treadmill moves, the plane stays, because it FREEWHEELS just like the above treadmill. However, because there ZERO friction between the plane and the tread mill, it is free to move forward, and as was stated before, the wheels simply double the speed of the surface until the plane takes off. But it can take off.

You can't have it both ways Tish. This is bench racing, remember.

[HB Vic]

So T, the earth rotates at approx. 1040MPH, making it the world's largest and fastest treadmill.

How is it that I can go 100 in my boat??

LOL :D

[2manymustangs]

So T, the earth rotates at approx. 1040MPH, making it the world's largest and fastest treadmill.

How is it that I can go 100 in my boat??

LOL :D

Boeing uses the earths rotation with SEA LAUNCH, they deploy commercial payloads via rocket at the earths equator to get a more accurate/TRUE launch and take advantage of the extra force at the equator versus 30-40 degrees north...

SEA LAUNCH hangs out near the Queen Mary in Long Beach and is a big freaking mobile rocket launcher that gets towed around the ocean...

[gn7]

So T, the earth rotates at approx. 1040MPH, making it the world's largest and fastest treadmill.

How is it that I can go 100 in my boat??

LOL :D
:hilarious: :hilarious: :hilarious:
Saint Dave of Santo Diago pipe that little package of sunshine up your ass?

[HB Vic]

:hilarious: :hilarious: :hilarious:
Saint Dave of Santo Diago pipe that little package of sunshine up your ass?

You crack me up sir :D

[Cat & Mice]

There is no top speed for the treadmill. It can turn as fast as it needs to in order to counter the wheels. 200, 400, 1000...no limit. The plane in the example has a power to weight ratio off the charts. If that guy wanted, he could take off from a standing start with a 5 foot taxi. It is absolutely possible for a propped plane to take from a standing start. That's what the plane in the example is designed to do...watch this....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsIzCqAQOck

What you are missing here is the wind speed. There is a huge headwind that is helping the plane take off. Listen to how loud the wind noise is. In fact you could argue that the treadmill would create enough wind at high speeds to do exactly what this plane is doing in this video.

Just like before the responses to this thread truelly baffles me.

I think you actually believe it will fly and you are just stirring the pot.

MP

[gn7]

What you are missing here is the wind speed. There is a huge headwind that is helping the plane take off. Listen to how loud the wind noise is. In fact you could argue that the treadmill would create enough wind at high speeds to do exactly what this plane is doing in this video.

Just like before the responses to this thread truelly baffles me.

I think you actually believe it will fly and you are just stirring the pot. :hilarious:


I wish that were the case, but I don't think so. I am certain he thinks it won't
There was a thread on another site years ago, and I just revisited the thread to remind myself what was said and believed. It was pretty funny, and sad at the same time. Only one guy, the guy that started the thread of course, refused to budge. Others were truly interested and learning.
Upside, it was a real case scenario, and the OP learned real quick once he got into the ACTUAL as opposed to the theory in his mind. I believe he still does not get the physics of it, he just can no longer argue his theory.
:hilarious:

[Tishimself]

There are two factors at play here with this mind game, and Tish will twist them to fit his theory regardless, but in reality, he is trapped.

There can be two different types of treadmills. Motorized, or free moving. It matters not which we use here. So we will take on both, but the RULES apply to BOTH!

Free wheeling:
We have to assume an absolutely frictionless free wheeling treadmill. A man, dog, horse, bicycle, or top fuel dragster cannot move forward, Its impossible. At the same time, the treadmill will not move if they don't try to move forward. Its the attempt to move that moves the surface. None of them will fall off the tread mill, they just can't move. If a very stiff wind comes along, it can blow them right off the treadmill.
The plane does not need the surface to move forward. It can move forward and never have the treadmill move, except possibly in the same direction the plane is going because the tires drag it along. So now the treadmill, if moving, is going forward in the same direction. If it remains still, the plane moves. if it moves forward, the plane moves. But the plane CANNOT move the treadmill backward because there is no backward force to make it move that direction. The wheel are being dragged by the plane, and POSSIBLY the treadmill as well. The plane is not pushing off the tires, or the treadmill.

Motorized treadmill:

Tish, in his theoretical mind game, wants us to believe the plane has to rev the engine to stay on the tread mill or fall off. No different than any other motorized treadmill. EXCEPT, people, dogs, horses, and top fuel dragsters have 100% fricition that makes them need to "move" to stay on the mill. Stand there, and off you go.
However, our hypothetical plane, gets the same 100% frictionless bearing that were in the above freewheeling treadmill. If the treadmill moves, the plane stays, because it FREEWHEELS just like the above treadmill. However, because there ZERO friction between the plane and the tread mill, it is free to move forward, and as was stated before, the wheels simply double the speed of the surface until the plane takes off. But it can take off.

You can't have it both ways Tish. This is bench racing, remember.

Oh, oh wow. LOL. That was mind boggling, to say the least. I'll have whatever he's having. LOL. The treadmill is a non issue. All it needs to do is be large enough and long enough and fast enough to fulfill the requirements of the question. The friction is between the wheels of the plane and the surface of the treadmill. If anything, you need bearings on all those wheels that can withstand the stress. Again, all you need to know is this. It's all about the speed of the wheels. period. YOu get caught up in all the other BS and that's your downfall. The wheels transmit the thrust into movement. as long as the treadmill is moving in the OPPOSITE direction the plane is traveling, and the treadmill and wheels are moving at the same speed but in opposite directions, the plane will not move. Deal with it. YOu have overthought this way too far. It's actually very simple.

With one caveat. the original question ONLY posed the problem using a 747. There are other types of planes that will fly. The 747 and other types of aircraft will not.

[Tishimself]

What you are missing here is the wind speed. There is a huge headwind that is helping the plane take off. Listen to how loud the wind noise is. In fact you could argue that the treadmill would create enough wind at high speeds to do exactly what this plane is doing in this video.

Just like before the responses to this thread truelly baffles me.

I think you actually believe it will fly and you are just stirring the pot.

MP

First you cant tell from the video which way the wind is coming from. Second, that plane is from Alaska, and is built specifically to take off in one foot like that. In fact, there is actually a competition for pilots to build and take off in planes that have been customized to be able to take off in the shortest distance possible. That plane is one of them. The wind might be an issue, but how much is hard to tell....

Actually, I don't believe the plane, as posed in the question, a 747 will fly, but this one would.

[2manymustangs]

Oh, oh wow. LOL. That was mind boggling, to say the least. I'll have whatever he's having. LOL. The treadmill is a non issue. All it needs to do is be large enough and long enough and fast enough to fulfill the requirements of the question. The friction is between the wheels of the plane and the surface of the treadmill. If anything, you need bearings on all those wheels that can withstand the stress. Again, all you need to know is this. It's all about the speed of the wheels. period. YOu get caught up in all the other BS and that's your downfall. The wheels transmit the thrust into movement. as long as the treadmill is moving in the OPPOSITE direction the plane is traveling, and the treadmill and wheels are moving at the same speed but in opposite directions, the plane will not move. Deal with it. YOu have overthought this way too far. It's actually very simple.

With one caveat. the original question ONLY posed the problem using a 747. There are other types of planes that will fly. The 747 and other types of aircraft will not.

Can a man pull one of your train cars with his teeth if the track is level? If so how can this be, the train weighs TONS...

http://youtu.be/8qfvGyKOLh0

[Tishimself]

Can a man pull one of your train cars with his teeth if the track is level? If so how can this be, the train weighs TONS...

http://youtu.be/8qfvGyKOLh0

Maybe he has great teeth?? Maybe he uses polydent? No idea.

[gn7]

Can a man pull one of your train cars with his teeth if the track is level? If so how can this be, the train weighs TONS...


Myself and one other person moved 2, 35,000 lb chillers on a gantry crane 50 60 ft at the Glen Canyon dam a few years back. Hardest part was stopping them, not moving them.


Lets take Tish's imaginary plane and change it up a little. Lets hang it from a continuous beam, on a cable to a beam trolley. Now any 5 year old can move the plane on the beam. Easy. Now start moving the beam, as fast as you care to. All the planes prop has to do, is over come the friction of the beam trolley to reamin still. Its not much. To move forward, it only has to produce more THRUST than it takes to hold it still while the beam moves.
The "effort" the plane needs to put up to remain still while the beam moves is so low, it could be held in position by one person with a rope. Its only the friction put up by the trolley wheels, which very little. If you can move the plane, you can hold the plane.

You see, Tish wants ALL the thrust to equal ALL the friction, and thats fanatasy. Its bench racing at its finest.
He isn't applying any real physics to his mind game, just what he sees in his mind. It seems plausible to him, therefore, it is.

[2manymustangs]

Maybe he has great teeth?? Maybe he uses polydent? No idea.

All he has to do is overcome the rolling resistance of the train, with steel on steel its not much assuming the track is level... true???

thrust is thrust is thrust... as soon as the brakes on the aero-plane are UNlocked and the JET thrust starts to build OR the prop spins up and thrust builds up, the backward speed of the plane will slow and it will come to a stop when the thrust is greater enough to overcome the rolling resistance of the pneumatic tires on the conveyor belt/friction of the bearings from the weight of the plane... Any additional thrust will put him in forward motion...

[Tishimself]

All he has to do is overcome the rolling resistance of the train, with steel on steel its not much assuming the track is level... true???

thrust is thrust is thrust... as soon as the brakes on the aero-plane are UNlocked and the JET thrust starts to build OR the prop spins up and thrust builds up, the backward speed of the plane will slow and it will come to a stop when the thrust is greater enough to overcome the rolling resistance of the pneumatic tires on the conveyor belt/friction of the bearings from the weight of the plane... Any additional thrust will put him in forward motion...

Fpr what it's worth, a train wheel, any train wheel, sits on top of the railhead on a spot the size of a dime. Eight dimes is all the friction you get. No more, no less. Like I said, there are literally thousands upon thousands of pages of people battling out this question going back to the beginning of the 90's...no one side ever gives in, no one ever gets the other guys point. Personally, I could care less. This thread proves that the same things that made the thread on the first HB so virulent are still here. It was fun, but I'm out. You guys take it from here.....<B>

[2manymustangs]

Fpr what it's worth, a train wheel, any train wheel, sits on top of the railhead on a spot the size of a dime. Eight dimes is all the friction you get. No more, no less. Like I said, there are literally thousands upon thousands of pages of people battling out this question going back to the beginning of the 90's...no one side ever gives in, no one ever gets the other guys point. Personally, I could care less. This thread proves that the same things that made the thread on the first HB so virulent are still here. It was fun, but I'm out. You guys take it from here.....<B>

SO, a guy can apply 100lbs of force and overcome the friction created by the 58,000 lbs train car, doesn't it stand to reason that a jet engine with enough thrust to lift as much weight or more 60'000 feet into the air, it can overcome the "rolling resistence" of the weight of the aero-plane on the bearings/tires EVEN if it has to overcome the friction of an extra 800MPH of surface footage/bearing speed??? Once the plane has THRUSTED itself to a stop with minimal thrust it is CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF... :)

http://youtu.be/cT1yvqcDZZw

http://youtu.be/Q6AKVMtj5Kc

[gn7]

Fpr what it's worth, a train wheel, any train wheel, sits on top of the railhead on a spot the size of a dime. Eight dimes is all the friction you get. No more, no less. Like I said, there are literally thousands upon thousands of pages of people battling out this question going back to the beginning of the 90's...no one side ever gives in, no one ever gets the other guys point. Personally, I could care less. This thread proves that the same things that made the thread on the first HB so virulent are still here. It was fun, but I'm out. You guys take it from here.....<B>

It doesn't get settled because the "it can't fly" crowd what to come up with bullshit that keeps it grounded. No real physics, just new rules that say the friction equals the thrust. PROVE IT!
Like I said, its bench racing at its finest. Ever bench race? Ever win? Those that always claim to win bench races are those that have never actually raced. ANYTHING! EVER! Those are the hardest to beat.

[Tishimself]

It doesn't get settled because the "it can't fly" crowd what to come up with bullshit that keeps it grounded. No real physics, just new rules that say the friction equals the thrust. PROVE IT!
Like I said, its bench racing at its finest. Ever bench race? Ever win? Those that always claim to win bench races are those that have never actually raced. ANYTHING! EVER! Those are the hardest to beat.

Once upon a time brother, I argued on the other site just because I liked to argue. I didn't care what the topic was, as long as it was a heated lively discussion. And I got a lot of folks mad at me, and I got banned from that other site. When I was getting ready to post this up, I knew it had the potential to be as harsh a thread as it once was, but there was just enough doubt that I posted it up anyways. Now, I find that the back and forth bores me to no end. Call it getting older, I don't know. But I know there are far more interesting and entertaining things to talk about than planes and treadmills. I gotta go find something, anything else to talk about, or finish up some work on this car I am building for the layout......


31430

[gn7]

hey, that reminds me. Where about do you live, and how are you with LGB stuff.
I need help with controlling a track layout.

[Tishimself]

hey, that reminds me. Where about do you live, and how are you with LGB stuff.
I need help with controlling a track layout.

Not really an LGB guy, other than the track around the Christmas tree at Christmas. But I do love the stuff. Post up a pic of what it is your working on so I can see what it is, and also where do you live???


This is why I love LGB....does stuff no other scale can do...;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsRX-ka22iI

And the American version...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaqVQ04kryA

Gas Powered Snow Blower...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbE0K6KEcY4

[wolfie]

Enough with the planes on a treadmill already.. We all need to get together to help raise Later's boat!!!