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2manymustangs
01-15-2014, 09:47 AM
SO, it looks like from my limited knowledge and understanding of the TFF / BFF boats of old, that the speeds of the TAF are well beyond any of the fuel records...

Can someone give me a sanity check on this???


Panic Mouse was in the neighborhood of 155MPH and I see that the new 2013 TAF record speed is north of 160???


Was there an era of FUEL flats that were up north of 155MPH???

I have my Don Edwards DRAG BOAT book but Im too lazy to go and look up the numbers... BESIDES, it will be a fun and spirited discussion with different views/perspectives I'm sure... :wink2:

WESTERNAERO
01-15-2014, 10:01 AM
Are you seriously trying to compare a fuel engine from 40 years ago to an alky engine built today? :speechless-smiley-0

Sharp shooter
01-15-2014, 10:32 AM
SO, it looks like from my limited knowledge and understanding of the TFF / BFF boats of old, that the speeds of the TAF are well beyond any of the fuel records...

Can someone give me a sanity check on this???


Panic Mouse was in the neighborhood of 155MPH and I see that the new 2013 TAF record speed is north of 160???


Was there an era of FUEL flats that were up north of 155MPH???

I have my Don Edwards DRAG BOAT book but Im too lazy to go and look up the numbers... BESIDES, it will be a fun and spirited discussion with different views/perspectives I'm sure... :wink2:

The era of TFF saw speeds above 170. If I'm not mistaken, the fastest speed in a TFF was set in St. Louis at 176. Where were you Bruce? :D

Click up to 27:07 to hear how fast the Trojan Ghost fueler ran.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXzD2NxOslE

2manymustangs
01-15-2014, 10:44 AM
Are you seriously trying to compare a fuel engine from 40 years ago to an alky engine built today? :speechless-smiley-0

Nope, not the engines but rather the hulls... and the limits of the hulls...

SO Rick Williams talked about 173+ MPH with the Trojan Ghost and I see 176 MPH... (TY for the video Jerry, I forgot about that clip with Mr Williams)...

What are the limits, where is the ragged edge/top speed of a flattie with regard to TOP speed and bringing it back down safely???

SO the current fastest FLAT class (TAF) are getting very close to the highest speeds ever clocked in a flat bottom hull...


30640

gn7
01-15-2014, 11:12 AM
Are you seriously trying to compare a fuel engine from 40 years ago to an alky engine built today? :speechless-smiley-0

A 40 year old engine with a load in the tank compared to a alky today? I'll take the old engine and the loaded tank.

WESTERNAERO
01-15-2014, 11:29 AM
A 40 year old engine with a load in the tank compared to a alky today? I'll take the old engine and the loaded tank.

You need to explain this Bob. The hemis from long ago don't even compare to the hemis today. Technology in manufacturing has changed this tremendously. I don't know what kind of power the old fuel motors were making but it can't be close to what the alky motors are making these days. I'm not talking about fuel vs alcohol in the same motor today. I'm talking about new alky motor vs old fuel motor.
Am I way off here? Please explain.

2manymustangs
01-15-2014, 11:45 AM
You need to explain this Bob. The hemis from long ago don't even compare to the hemis today. Technology in manufacturing has changed this tremendously. I don't know what kind of power the old fuel motors were making but it can't be close to what the alky motors are making these days. I'm not talking about fuel vs alcohol in the same motor today. I'm talking about new alky motor vs old fuel motor.
Am I way off here? Please explain.

Again, im asking more about the limits of the flattie hull versus the engine... There must be some limit to the flattie hull NOT having the training wheels of a hydro...

As for the fuel engines versus alcohol, this may help in terms of where Bob is coming from, fuel is a total game changer in terms of power. New or old, it's still just an air pump no matter if the new engines are more precise/tighter tolerances/strength:



Nitromethane

This slightly viscous liquid was originally created as a solvent for use in the dry cleaning industry. Its first use in competition is shrouded with various first-use claims, but among the accomplishments of record is nitro's first successful use in a circle track Midget driven at the famous Gilmore Stadium in 1950 by future Indy 500 winner Roger Ward and tuned by Vic Edelbrock Sr. The drag racers who experimented with the fuel in the early '50s, included Joaquin Arnett of Bean Bandits fame. The secret to power is hidden in nitromethane's chemical formula of CH3NO2. That O2 at the end is oxygen, which separates its chemical bonds to nitrogen during combustion and allows the oxygen to contribute to the combustion process. With gasoline, the air/fuel ratio for best power is 12.5 parts air to one part fuel (12.5:1). But because nitromethane contains its own oxygen, fuel racers long ago discovered that the more fuel you could feed the engine, the more power it made, bringing the air/fuel ratio closer to a 1:1 ratio.

Miller says if you compute the actual mechanical ratio of air and fuel with today's fuel engines, "the numbers get closer to 3 pounds of nitro for every 1 pound of air. But a lot of this fuel is used to cool the burn. People don't know this, but nitro, alcohol, and gasoline all have very similar burn rates," Miller says. "In fact, nitro is in between gasoline and methanol. All that lead [ignition timing] is due to the liquid fuel." In other words, the additional timing is necessary because, Miller says "only 10 percent of what's in the chamber is vapor; the rest is liquid." The vapor burns first, creating enough heat to begin to vaporize the rest of the liquid fuel. But this takes time, which means earlier ignition timing.


Read more: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1009_8000hp_top_fuel_engine/nitromethane_race_fuel.html#ixzz2qUhC8teC

WESTERNAERO
01-15-2014, 11:48 AM
Yeah I know what your asking and I'm not trying to change the subject sorry. Maybe Bob can get an engine section going here and he can explain.

gn7
01-15-2014, 11:50 AM
You need to explain this Bob. The hemis from long ago don't even compare to the hemis today. Technology in manufacturing has changed this tremendously. I don't know what kind of power the old fuel motors were making but it can't be close to what the alky motors are making these days. I'm not talking about fuel vs alcohol in the same motor today. I'm talking about new alky motor vs old fuel motor.
Am I way off here? Please explain.

Point being, THEN, they loaded liquid dynamite into the cylinders. Today they don't. That's why the flats then were faster and QUICKER than the flats today. 2MM was only asking about the speeds then compared to today. Engine technology is allowing them to catch up. But its hard to compete against nitrogenated fuel with booze

You no longer can really compare the 2. The TAF are running 320 feet less and its makes hitting 175 plus a little more difficult. But then, they didn't charge the tree back then like they do now. But they still have less room to get to speed.

But a Donovan on crack compared to a Brad 6 on booze. I'll take the Donovan everytime.

2manymustangs
01-15-2014, 11:57 AM
Let me ask THIS quesiton...

How many guys (or gals) besides our friend Tony have gone over 160mph in a flattie??? Could we count them on one hand or two hands???

Brian
01-15-2014, 12:31 PM
I would say 2 hands, but not 3.

MrDenton
01-15-2014, 01:00 PM
Since we're talking hull capabilities, is there any way a TAF handle a fuel motor if today? De-tuned and slowly work it's way up. Would the W drive just generate too much lift?

Cool topic Bruce. Btw, I haven't forgotten about those nuts I owe you. Did y'all enjoy your brisk weather?


Blown Gas Flats to Rope...
In loving memory of
Chris "Church Mouse" Blevens

2manymustangs
01-15-2014, 01:03 PM
Since we're talking hull capabilities, is there any way a TAF handle a fuel motor if today? De-tuned and slowly work it's way up. Would the W drive just generate too much lift?

Cool topic Bruce. Btw, I haven't forgotten about those nuts I owe you. Did y'all enjoy your brisk weather?


Blown Gas Flats to Rope...
In loving memory of
Chris "Church Mouse" Blevens

Conversely I didnt forget the parts list :)

Brian
01-15-2014, 02:18 PM
Since we're talking hull capabilities, is there any way a TAF handle a fuel motor if today? De-tuned and slowly work it's way up. Would the W drive just generate too much lift?

Cool topic Bruce. Btw, I haven't forgotten about those nuts I owe you. Did y'all enjoy your brisk weather?


Blown Gas Flats to Rope...
In loving memory of
Chris "Church Mouse" Blevens

It was tried and it didn't work too well the first time around (dual props)
30646

Outboardguru
01-15-2014, 02:23 PM
Point being, THEN, they loaded liquid dynamite into the cylinders. Today they don't. That's why the flats then were faster and QUICKER than the flats today. 2MM was only asking about the speeds then compared to today. Engine technology is allowing them to catch up. But its hard to compete against nitrogenated fuel with booze

You no longer can really compare the 2. The TAF are running 320 feet less and its makes hitting 175 plus a little more difficult. But then, they didn't charge the tree back then like they do now. But they still have less room to get to speed.

But a Donovan on crack compared to a Brad 6 on booze. I'll take the Donovan everytime.

The speeds and ETs were what they were because of the gearing they had to run with the rolling start. We are trying to get a fuel class back back up and running because of the new start but they are having none of it. WIth the dead stop, the volatility is taken away a little bit because you can now burn the prop and the weight of the capsule on the nose.

Outboardguru
01-15-2014, 02:27 PM
There are many guys that have gone over 160 in a flat bottom. Probably 8 hands. But not that many have been over 170. I am gonna guess 2 hands. When they ran the twin prop ATTA boat they kept cutting down the propellers because of all the lift they created but they endied up cutting them so small they were completely inefficient.

WESTERNAERO
01-15-2014, 02:30 PM
The speeds and ETs were what they were because of the gearing they had to run with the rolling start. We are trying to get a fuel class back back up and running because of the new start but they are having none of it. WIth the dead stop, the volatility is taken away a little bit because you can now burn the prop and the weight of the capsule on the nose.

So how much slower would they have run if they started like they do now?

2manymustangs
01-15-2014, 02:34 PM
There are many guys that have gone over 160 in a flat bottom. Probably 8 hands. But not that many have been over 170. I am gonna guess 2 hands. When they ran the twin prop ATTA boat they kept cutting down the propellers because of all the lift they created but they endied up cutting them so small they were completely inefficient.

What is/was your top speed so far??? IF my memory is right you are up well over 10MPH since the last 3 years at the beginning of the red shazam...

Has anything changed to push the limit of a flattie beyond what the fastest blown fuel boats went back in the day??? Wings/aerodynamics with the capsule/etc...

Outboardguru
01-15-2014, 03:23 PM
So how much slower would they have run if they started like they do now?

I think you would still see those kinds of speeds but the ETs would be crazy low. You can load these things much harder now with the new start. Its hard to describe because with a flat bottom you have to be able to drive them with all that power. It's not just a point and shoot deal.

Bruce we have run 171 twice with Kevin's boat and at Havasu went 175. Normally though we are in the low to mid 160s in Kevins boat and mid to high 150s in Shazam. This all about to change though as we brought on Jim Lange who built Cole Flats back in the day. You will see passes in the 4's this year.

Brian
01-15-2014, 03:59 PM
This all about to change though as we brought on Jim Lange who built Cole Flats back in the day. You will see passes in the 4's this year.

Good move! Can't wait to see the numbers!

rioracr
01-18-2014, 02:27 PM
Al Bush, old driver of Crazy Horse drove a BFF in a Texas race for a team and clocked a pass at over 175 and change which at the time was the fastest flat pass....

fenceman
08-14-2014, 01:19 PM
Does anyone know what happened to that twin prop flat?

RogerThat99
08-14-2014, 02:49 PM
There was a gold colored twin prop flat. Did more than one boat have twin props or is that the same boat in the pic above?

franger
08-14-2014, 04:36 PM
Johnny Heideman ran 176.04 at Dexter a few years ago with nitro in his Nightmare #641 boat, on the tee shirt I got from him it claims that to be the fastest BFF pass of all time. Don't know if he backed that up or not, maybe someone else can clarify

2manymustangs
08-14-2014, 05:56 PM
I think you would still see those kinds of speeds but the ETs would be crazy low. You can load these things much harder now with the new start. Its hard to describe because with a flat bottom you have to be able to drive them with all that power. It's not just a point and shoot deal.

Bruce we have run 171 twice with Kevin's boat and at Havasu went 175. Normally though we are in the low to mid 160s in Kevins boat and mid to high 150s in Shazam. This all about to change though as we brought on Jim Lange who built Cole Flats back in the day. You will see passes in the 4's this year.

BUMP....

THis was / IS a very interesting thread, thanks for bumping it back up Mr. Franger... How are you doing these days buddy??? :D

RogerThat99
08-14-2014, 08:19 PM
BUMP....

THis was / IS a very interesting thread, thanks for bumping it back up Mr. Franger... How are you doing these days buddy??? :D
Agreed.

doubleeagle
08-15-2014, 07:21 AM
I understand Jim Lange is building a completely new flat tooling a new plug should be very interesting to see what he comes up with.

MrDenton
08-16-2014, 10:36 AM
Bruce, is your question in regards to the speed limitations of a flat bottom hull only for 1,000'/ 1/4 milers?
Look at the Kilo records, the K boats are running in the 140's with what 1500-1700hp. What could they do with another 1000hp? I mean how fast can they go? Take away the distance limits and turn them loose. Seems to me they're pretty close to that limit.

2manymustangs
08-18-2014, 02:42 PM
Bruce, is your question in regards to the speed limitations of a flat bottom hull only for 1,000'/ 1/4 milers?
Look at the Kilo records, the K boats are running in the 140's with what 1500-1700hp. What could they do with another 1000hp? I mean how fast can they go? Take away the distance limits and turn them loose. Seems to me they're pretty close to that limit.

Either or... I dont know much at all about the early days, I'm just curious where the realistic line is for a flattie hull... At mid 150's TheGuru makes them look like they are on rails from the rope to the 1000'...

Sharp shooter
08-18-2014, 04:05 PM
Either or... I dont know much at all about the early days, I'm just curious where the realistic line is for a flattie hull... At mid 150's TheGuru makes them look like they are on rails from the rope to the 1000'...

Bruce, first off a "flattie" hull can mean many different things considering how many varieties there are. The fastest flatties are runnerbottoms and have pushed up on 180 mph, but many have crashed much slower. The non runnerbottom circle hulls have been proven at just a tick over 150 and according to some team claims (which aren't verified) upper 150's. Again many have crashed much slower. So, with all conditions and factors perfect one can figure the best runnerbottom right around 180 and the best circle flat low 150's until these marks are raised.

Sanger_Spectra
08-18-2014, 08:21 PM
My neighbor has an eliminator jet, jet pump is polished and he has headers, the thing is loud, he can break 110 and still have throttle left, may be we should get some jet guys to really talk about speed :) Sorry just my attemp to add a little humor. The pilots of these things going that fast are just flat crazy. WOW!!

WESTERNAERO
08-18-2014, 11:00 PM
My neighbor has an eliminator jet, jet pump is polished and he has headers, the thing is loud, he can break 110 and still have throttle left, may be we should get some jet guys to really talk about speed :) Sorry just my attemp to add a little humor. The pilots of these things going that fast are just flat crazy. WOW!!

Damn, that's was rough! Lmao!

2manymustangs
08-19-2014, 04:54 AM
Bruce, first off a "flattie" hull can mean many different things considering how many varieties there are. The fastest flatties are runnerbottoms and have pushed up on 180 mph, but many have crashed much slower. The non runnerbottom circle hulls have been proven at just a tick over 150 and according to some team claims (which aren't verified) upper 150's. Again many have crashed much slower. So, with all conditions and factors perfect one can figure the best runnerbottom right around 180 and the best circle flat low 150's until these marks are raised.

Yep, I do understand that there are variations/variables on the runners/steps/strakes/etc, that is why I lumped them all into one bucket (not knowing what the drag guys favor).

Can a legal drag/circle flat have ANY keel OR gull at all? IS a TRUE flat just what the name implies? What are the rules for CIRCLE and for DRAG ?

When you look at KILO records for this hull type and top speeds from back in the day with FUEL boats it leads me to believe that there is a limit but that is just my simple and UNexperienced view.

Are there more variations/changes that can be made to make them safe at 180 and up like additional bottom refinement/wind tunnel testing/wings/capsule shape/weight/balance?

At this point, 40-50 years later, have all of the LEGAL ENHANCEMENTS to the bottom been tried at this point?

Are there chine differences that are legal/not legal helpful somehow in high speed stability?

Sharp shooter
08-19-2014, 01:41 PM
Can a legal drag/circle flat have ANY keel OR gull at all?

Yes


IS a TRUE flat just what the name implies?

Sometimes. Some true flats have a tiny amount of V and some don't and some true flats have dropped chines.


What are the rules for CIRCLE and for DRAG ?

You're crazy if you think I'm gonna list all the rules.YOU can look that up. Circle bottom rules are on line. Drag boat rules might be too, but I don't really know.


When you look at KILO records for this hull type and top speeds from back in the day with FUEL boats it leads me to believe that there is a limit but that is just my simple and UNexperienced view.


Are there more variations/changes that can be made to make them safe at 180 and up like additional bottom refinement/wind tunnel testing/wings/capsule shape/weight/balance?

Your guess is as good as mine.


At this point, 40-50 years later, have all of the LEGAL ENHANCEMENTS to the bottom been tried at this point?

I couldn't say...


Are there chine differences that are legal/not legal helpful somehow in high speed stability?

I have no idea...

Hope this helps. :D:D

2manymustangs
08-19-2014, 06:46 PM
Yes



Sometimes. Some true flats have a tiny amount of V and some don't and some true flats have dropped chines.



You're crazy if you think I'm gonna list all the rules.YOU can look that up. Circle bottom rules are on line. Drag boat rules might be too, but I don't really know.





Your guess is as good as mine.



I couldn't say...



I have no idea...

Hope this helps. :D:D

With your first few answers I know more than I did a few minutes ago so YES, it does help... :D

Do you know anything about the bottom of the K69 Freedom Child (I'm thinking in terms of their KILO runs over the last few years at a buck 45+)?

http://youtu.be/yblcuxoqR18

Sharp shooter
08-19-2014, 07:51 PM
With your first few answers I know more than I did a few minutes ago so YES, it does help... :D

Do you know anything about the bottom of the K69 Freedom Child (I'm thinking in terms of their KILO runs over the last few years at a buck 45+)?

http://youtu.be/yblcuxoqR18

It's an APBA legal K boat bottom. I'm sure it's blueprinted to the hilt.

SnoC653
08-19-2014, 10:21 PM
My understanding is there are things that make the boat more stable in a straight line but hurts the ability to turn and vice versa. Chines and tunnels and strakes are examples. Reducing the wetted surface area also makes the boat faster (in theory). So the further back on the hull or plates the boat rides the faster it could be. But, too nose high is unstable and not high enough is too wet to be fast enough. And that just covers bottom basics. You still have a whole other topic of balance, HP, Torque, prop diameter, prop pitch, prop cup, and aero/fluid dynamics which all affect the handling and drive-ability of the boat.

2manymustangs
08-20-2014, 05:15 AM
It's an APBA legal K boat bottom. I'm sure it's blueprinted to the hilt.


My understanding is there are things that make the boat more stable in a straight line but hurts the ability to turn and vice versa. Chines and tunnels and strakes are examples. Reducing the wetted surface area also makes the boat faster (in theory). So the further back on the hull or plates the boat rides the faster it could be. But, too nose high is unstable and not high enough is too wet to be fast enough. And that just covers bottom basics. You still have a whole other topic of balance, HP, Torque, prop diameter, prop pitch, prop cup, and aero/fluid dynamics which all affect the handling and drive-ability of the boat.


BTW, I stood back and quietly watched Dave meticulously adjust/check the plates mid way through the Long Beach event, for about 30-45 minutes... That was pretty amazing to see what he ended up with... :grad: (it might have been with Robbie on the SS1)

It was NOT AT ALL what I expected but it certainly made me say Hhhmmmmmm :hmmm: (thinking of the plates being an extension of the bottom...)


As for the bottom (blueprinted to the hilt), I agree totally. I'll wager the bottom of that hull (K69) has had more study than any one flat bottom out there knowing the last 6-7yr history and knowing Rank Daddy&Gordy...

2manymustangs
09-02-2014, 08:56 AM
Just found this on the LUCAS DRAG BOAT site:

Top Alcohol Flat 641 Nightmare C.Heidemann/ J.Heidemann 165.893 MPH November 2011 World Finals, Firebird Raceway

Sharp shooter
09-02-2014, 10:42 PM
Just found this on the LUCAS DRAG BOAT site:

Top Alcohol Flat 641 Nightmare C.Heidemann/ J.Heidemann 165.893 MPH November 2011 World Finals, Firebird Raceway

Not sure why you're posting this. Please elaborate.

2manymustangs
09-03-2014, 05:31 AM
Not sure why you're posting this. Please elaborate.

WHile looking for the results from last weekend at Wheatland I found the above info on the RECORDS tab, (old info a few years old). The MPH is pretty far up there for the TAF class... I guess at one point over the last few years TAF 641 was holding the record w/ 165.xx MPH...

Sharp shooter
09-03-2014, 08:20 AM
WHile looking for the results from last weekend at Wheatland I found the above info on the RECORDS tab, (old info a few years old). The MPH is pretty far up there for the TAF class... I guess at one point over the last few years TAF 641 was holding the record w/ 165.xx MPH...

Considering there are runnerbottoms that have ran much faster on many occasions, I don't see what you're getting at....

2manymustangs
09-03-2014, 10:29 AM
Considering there are runnerbottoms that have ran much faster on many occasions, I don't see what you're getting at....

Provide me with the link to the certified/records or details and I will remove what I copy/pasted from the LUCAS DRAG boat site and replace it with the info you provide me...

In my mind it gets to the point of "consistently obtainable AND safe top speeds of flat bottom drag boats" OR flat bottoms in general (circle boats included)...

Brian
09-03-2014, 11:28 AM
I have no dog in this fight but here is some info from the old IHBA site in 2009. These are 1/4 mile speeds, before they went to 1000ft.

TOP ALCOHOL FLAT
179.72 Johnny Heidemann Super Nationals Chowchilla CA 2008
174.66 Johnny HeidemannNitro Nationals Red Bluff CA 2007
173.62Johnny HeidemannNitro Nationals Red Bluff CA 2007
176.04Johnny HeidemannNitro Nationals Red Bluff CA 2002
171.70 Don BausherWorld Finals Chandler AZ 2004

2manymustangs
09-03-2014, 12:37 PM
I have no dog in this fight but here is some info from the old IHBA site in 2009. These are 1/4 mile speeds, before they went to 1000ft.

TOP ALCOHOL FLAT
179.72 Johnny Heidemann Super Nationals Chowchilla CA 2008
174.66 Johnny HeidemannNitro Nationals Red Bluff CA 2007
173.62Johnny HeidemannNitro Nationals Red Bluff CA 2007
176.04Johnny HeidemannNitro Nationals Red Bluff CA 2002
171.70 Don BausherWorld Finals Chandler AZ 2004

TY sir, great info :) Damn that is fast...